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Rich DeVos on Third Generation, IBOs, Gay Marriage, Obama
#31
ibofightback Wrote:ss3251, does that mean marriage between two inactive homosexuals would be OK in your book?

Also, I think claims that the NT addresses homosexuality are a bit of an interpretive stretch.

This post has a reasonable overview of why.


If a man and woman who both have homosexual feelings, but choose not to act on them, fall in love and wish to get married, then yes, it would be OK in my book.

Also, your link (to an article by a pastor of a church in the heart of an extremely homosexual community) is much more of a stretch. The verses in the NT that address homosexuality reinforce the idea that homosexual activity is a sin as described in the OT.
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#32
MichMan Wrote:Even the example here earlier from another poster compared gays to murderers. I fail to see how that would make many homosexuals feel welcome at church.

But anyway, I'm curious. Would people rather raise their families next to a person living a gay lifestyle or a person living a murderous lifestyle?


Michman, you are clearly refering to one of my posts. And, I was absolutely not comparing gays to murderers. I simply gave murder as an example of another sin from the Old Testament that is still a sin today. I could have listed many other examples, none of which would be a directly comparing them to being gay, other than saying that they too are a sin, as the Bible says homosexual activity is.

Also, I clearly said in my other posts that I do not hold homosexual activity as a worse sin than any other (I believe God looks upon all sins the same). I have a problem with any person who is openly embracing a sin claiming to be a Christian. They cannot have the personal relationship with God when they have an unforgiven sin standing in the way. I feel same if the person is having an affair, abusing drugs or alchohol, gambling, or openly participating in any other sin without seeking repentance for it. My problem is not with the specific sin, but with the person claiming to be a Christian while openly and unrepentently participating in a sin.
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#33
TB 2 IBO Wrote:
Bridgett Wrote:This is why someone can be Christian and gay.

And, this is why those who are followers of Christ and who are gay, I believe, have the hardest time. Which is what I said in my last post.

The gay community, as a whole, do not accept them because, like most people in general, they aren't accepting of Christians.

And the Christians community, as a whole, do not accept them because, like most hypocritcal self-righteous selves, since they personally aren't gay, nor have deep friendships/family ties with gay people, they brush them off as self-denial sinners, and hold only stereotypical views of gays.

I'm sorry Bridgett, but randomly pulling several verses out of the Bible and comparing them to homosexuality is a huge stretch at best and blatantly dishonest at the worst.

It would be comparable to someone who says.."I'm a Christian...I believe in Jesus....but I am still going to sacrifice this sheep in the name of God". Clearly, where Christianity is concerned, the act of homosexuality is considered a sin. Not all people who believe this is a sin are self righteous. Heck, I have even lived with a gay couple for a lengthy period of time. They are great friends, but in my opinion, in my Faith it is a sin.

If you are Christian, there is ONLY one way to get to Heaven. It is through the blood of Jesus Christ, repentance and acceptance of Jesus as your savior. You can't do it by good deeds, being nice, starting charities or even being a minister. It is free gift. Your sins need to be blood washed and blood bought. That's it.


TB 2 IBO,

No, it is not CLEARLY. That is my point. To YOU it is clearly.

As I said, not all Christians believe that homosexuality is a sin.

It is self-rightous to use the word “clearly”, IMO.

Is drinking alcohol is a sin?
Is dancing a sin?

Some Christians say "yes". If I don't agree with them, am I CLEARLY wrong?

It's the way we, as Christians, think and speak on subjects that can sometimes so NOT reflect the HEART of Christ, and instead reflects the heart of the Pharisees--the haters of Jesus.

That...is...my...point.
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#34
You guys are all missing 3 very important points about The Institution of Marriage. These very important considerations are: 1.When was marriage 1st instituted? 2.By whom was marriage 1st instituted? 3.what were the conditions of marriage as it was 1st instituted? There is only one common source that references these 3 points - The Scriptures. Not only the Bible, but many sacred texts reference the marriage of Adam & Eve as being instituted & ordered by God himself. There is no other historical record to my knowledge that even attempts to cite the 1st marriage being performed, by whom, & under what conditions,etc. As soon as the Gay Community can prove that marriage is a wholly man-made institution, created either civilly or governmentally, then they can have it.
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#35
Bridgett Wrote:TB 2 IBO,

No, it is not CLEARLY. That is my point. To YOU it is clearly.

Leviticus 18:22 CLEARLY states it is a sin.
Leviticus 20:13 CLEARLY states it is a sin.**Also notice it is punishable by God. It is not a call for us to bring death to them.
Romans 1:26-27 CLEARLY states it is a sin.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 CLEARLY states it is a sin.

Can you point to the Bible where it says it is ok to be a homosexual? I can't find it.

Quote:As I said, not all Christians believe that homosexuality is a sin.
Then "they" are not Christians. They may follow the faith and that is good, but are not Christians, simply because they live in sin. Let me be clear here. I am assuming you mean a gay couple who believe they are Christians and acting in such a manner. If you mean a hetero Christian who thinks it isn't a sin...well that is his/her opinion. I don't think it would classify as a sin??
Quote:It is self-rightous to use the word “clearly”, IMO.
What other word would you have me use? It is a sin according to the Bible and our God. Obviously, blatantly, patently, plainly, simply...which would make you feel better?

Quote:Is drinking alcohol is a sin?
Nope...it is drunkenness that is a sin.
Quote:Is dancing a sin?
Uhh, nope it is not. It is what you are thinking when dancing that would make it a sin. The Bible is also pretty clear on this as well. Remember the famous song from Ecclesiastes??

Quote:Some Christians say "yes". If I don't agree with them, am I CLEARLY wrong?
Then those Christians don't read the Bible.

Quote:It's the way we, as Christians, think and speak on subjects that can sometimes so NOT reflect the HEART of Christ, and instead reflects the heart of the Pharisees--the haters of Jesus.

That...is...my...point.
Where has anyone claimed to be a hater of Jesus or anyone else?? In fact, I do believe it has been pointed out, it not for us to ridicule or persecute anyone for anything. Instead, love on them as Jesus would have done. It doesn't say we have to agree with them or coddle them to make their sin somehow seem less of a sin.
It is only through labor and painful effort, by grim energy and resolute courage, that we move on to better things. --Roosevelt
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#36
ss3251 Wrote:
MichMan Wrote:Even the example here earlier from another poster compared gays to murderers. I fail to see how that would make many homosexuals feel welcome at church.

But anyway, I'm curious. Would people rather raise their families next to a person living a gay lifestyle or a person living a murderous lifestyle?


Michman, you are clearly refering to one of my posts. And, I was absolutely not comparing gays to murderers. I simply gave murder as an example of another sin from the Old Testament that is still a sin today. I could have listed many other examples,


If I was gay and read that post, I would think you were comparing me to a murderer. I spent Mothers Day with a gay friend and his companion. If I had read that post to him, he would have been completely offended.

You are not going to ever be able to be a positive influence on anybody with comparisions like that.

Just sayin...
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#37
TB 2 IBO Wrote:If you are Christian, there is ONLY one way to get to Heaven. It is through the blood of Jesus Christ, repentance and acceptance of Jesus as your savior. You can't do it by good deeds, being nice, starting charities or even being a minister. It is free gift. Your sins need to be blood washed and blood bought. That's it.


You know, I have a serious problem with this version of Christianity. It essentially says who you are and what you do doesn't matter, as long as you suck up to the boss.

Even if all true, I wouldn't want a part of it.
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#38
TB 2 IBO Wrote:Leviticus 18:22 CLEARLY states it is a sin.


You're correct, there's an extremely strong case for that interpretation.

I'm pretty stunned though TB2IBO. You're not the sort of person whom I thought believed that

* Children should be put to death if they curse they're parents (Leviticus 20:9)
* People should be exiled for having sex or seeing a woman naked if they're menstruating (Leviticus 20:18)
* Slavery is perfectly ok (Leviticus 25:44-45)

and you do have a beard and sideburns like the Taliban don't you? (Leviticus 19:27) and of course would never were a cotton/polyster blend shirt (Leviticus 19:19) and certainly never support farmers who grow more than one crop (Leviticus 19:19)

My vegetarian fiancee is however very pleased to hear you don't eat pork (Leviticus 11:7), and absolutely not shrimp, shellfish, or lobster (Leviticus 11:10), it too being an abomination like homosexuality

Still, I at least give you credit for your consistency. Sticking to all those rules must be hard. I'm particular curious as to how you've spent your life dealing with children who get upset with their parents?
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#39
Quote:Children should be put to death if they curse [their] parents (Leviticus 20:9)

That one does sound tempting. (I have three teenagers.)
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#40
Interesting article, since we are on this subject:


MAY 12, 2009 10:53PM

American Psychological Association: No "gay" Gene.

A decade or so ago (1998) the APA (American Psychological Association) released a brochure titled ""Answers to Your Questions about Sexual Orientation and Homosexuality" that contained the following statement: "There is considerable recent evidence to suggest that biology, including genetic or inborn hormonal factors, play a significant role in a person's sexuality."

However, they have just released a new brochure and it appears that they have backed off of that somewhat. The new statement says: "There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles..."


http://open.salon.com/blog/djohn/2009/05...o_gay_gene
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