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Rich DeVos on Third Generation, IBOs, Gay Marriage, Obama
#21
An athiest/agnostic telling Christians how to interpret the Bible and observe their faith?

What's next? A foreigner telling Americans how they should interpret their Constitution and how implement domestic US policy?
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#22
ever heard of benefits of objectivity? Smile

in any case, the previous link was written by a Reverend, not me.
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#23
And my jab at you was a joke. I forgot the smiley face. Big Grin

Sometimes, like lately, you can be a good sport.

Cheers,
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#24
MichMan Wrote:Sometimes, like lately, you can be a good sport.


I gave up trying to give up caffeine :grin:
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#25
MichMan Wrote:What's next? A foreigner telling Americans how they should interpret their Constitution and how implement domestic US policy?


Sounds like a plan ! :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
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#26
Just an FYI,

Not all Christians believe that homosexuality is a sin.

Yes, not all Bible-believing, one-Way-to-Heaven-believing, Christians believe that being gay or "acting" gay is a sin.

********************************
Using the Old Testament "clobber verse" Leviticus 20:13 is a weak argument in light of the fact that other Old Testament verses we not only don't follow, but look at the punishment as barbaric.

LEVITICUS 18:19
The Bible forbids a married couple from having sexual intercourse during a woman's period. If they disobey, both shall be executed.

DEUTERONOMY 25:11-12
If a man gets into a fight with another man and his wife seeks to rescue her husband by grabbing the enemy's genitals, her hand shall be cut off and no pity shall be shown her.

to name just two of many.

****************
Regarding the New Testament, again, the "clobber verses" which contain the word "homosexuality" need to be taken with a gihugic grain of salt, in light of the fact that the words "homosexulity" and "homosexuals" were not introduced in translations until 1958.

Appox. 1900 YEARS after it was written.

The words "malaokois" and "arsenokoitai" used in 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 1Timothy 1:10 have confused scholars for years, even today. They don't even appear in concordances (before 1958) because their meanings were so obscure.

Malaokois is thought to mean effeminate boys. And may have been male prostitutes.
Arsenokoitai, some believe, was a phrase Paul made up to mean the customers of these male prostitutes--dirty old men.

But again, no one really knows.

*******************
This is why someone can be Christian and gay.

And, this is why those who are followers of Christ and who are gay, I believe, have the hardest time. Which is what I said in my last post.

The gay community, as a whole, do not accept them because, like most people in general, they aren't accepting of Christians.

And the Christians community, as a whole, do not accept them because, like most hypocritcal self-righteous selves, since they personally aren't gay, nor have deep friendships/family ties with gay people, they brush them off as self-denial sinners, and hold only stereotypical views of gays.
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#27
By the way, I'm not looking to get in to a debate as to whether or not homosexuality is a sin.

What one person sees so clearly as true, another person sees so clearly not true. That's all I'm sayin'.

Smile
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#28
Even if homosexuality is a sin (and I do have an opinion), I don't understand why it is treated any differently by the church than other vices like gambling, over-eating, drinking, alcohol/drug abuse, sexual addictions, etc.

You never hear "hate the sin but love the sinner" when talking about gluttony. (maybe because half of the TV preachers are fat) It is sad to say but the only time I have ever heard that phrase used is in regards to gays.

Even the example here earlier from another poster compared gays to murderers. I fail to see how that would make many homosexuals feel welcome at church.

But anyway, I'm curious. Would people rather raise their families next to a person living a gay lifestyle or a person living a murderous lifestyle?
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#29
TB 2 IBO Wrote:
Bridgett Wrote:I find it so interesting...if you believe being and/or acting gay is a sin, why is it okay to rant about homosexuality, yet we don't go walking up to fat people and rant to them about their gluttony?


I think we do. Look at our society today. What is the norm that we see all over. Skinny this, diet that. Again, we may view it as a sin, doesn't mean we have hate the people or even rant about it. Like you said, God will be the one who decides and judges, not us.


I'm not talking about "society." I'm talking about Christians "leaders." I don't hear Dobson, Mr. Focus on the Family, talking about how over-feeding his body is a sin. Instead, I see him LYING with "studies" about homosexuals and homosexuality, all in the name of "saving the family."

The family is falling apart....and it has ZERO to do with gays. Us heterosexuals have messed up marriage and family since the beginning of time, without their help. :doh:
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#30
Bridgett Wrote:This is why someone can be Christian and gay.

And, this is why those who are followers of Christ and who are gay, I believe, have the hardest time. Which is what I said in my last post.

The gay community, as a whole, do not accept them because, like most people in general, they aren't accepting of Christians.

And the Christians community, as a whole, do not accept them because, like most hypocritcal self-righteous selves, since they personally aren't gay, nor have deep friendships/family ties with gay people, they brush them off as self-denial sinners, and hold only stereotypical views of gays.

I'm sorry Bridgett, but randomly pulling several verses out of the Bible and comparing them to homosexuality is a huge stretch at best and blatantly dishonest at the worst.

It would be comparable to someone who says.."I'm a Christian...I believe in Jesus....but I am still going to sacrifice this sheep in the name of God". Clearly, where Christianity is concerned, the act of homosexuality is considered a sin. Not all people who believe this is a sin are self righteous. Heck, I have even lived with a gay couple for a lengthy period of time. They are great friends, but in my opinion, in my Faith it is a sin.

If you are Christian, there is ONLY one way to get to Heaven. It is through the blood of Jesus Christ, repentance and acceptance of Jesus as your savior. You can't do it by good deeds, being nice, starting charities or even being a minister. It is free gift. Your sins need to be blood washed and blood bought. That's it.
It is only through labor and painful effort, by grim energy and resolute courage, that we move on to better things. --Roosevelt
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