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Rich DeVos on Third Generation, IBOs, Gay Marriage, Obama
#11
Bridgett Wrote:For those who are taught the message of Jesus, of unconditional love (that's redundant), and grace; but then the hatred and the condemnation in the church toward them, all in the name of God...ug.

I don't have all the answers, however, after reading his book "Stranger at the Gate," I just say that my "job" is to LOVE, and leave the rest to God.

I find it so interesting...if you believe being and/or acting gay is a sin, why is it okay to rant about homosexuality, yet we don't go walking up to fat people and rant to them about their gluttony?

It's just so stupid.

(shakes her head, and walks away)


I don't think anyone here is ranting about homosexuality.

This is what Rich said, "I deal with a lot of wonderful gay people. I hire a lot of them. I use a lot of them. I respect them. They're terrific. I am good friends with them. But you live your life the way you want to live and I'll live mine and I won't stick my nose in yours. But don't keep trying to change things. That's all."

(Contrast that with Bill Britt: "God created Adam and Eve. He didn't create Adam and Steve...")

Anyway, I am finishing one Rich's books and am about to start another. I have never seen him have anything but respect for other people, even those with whom he disagrees. And yes, it is too bad that gays don't feel more welcome in churches.
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#12
Bridgett Wrote:For those who are taught the message of Jesus, of unconditional love (that's redundant), and grace; but then the hatred and the condemnation in the church toward them, all in the name of God...ug.


Bridgett, just because someone or some church doesn't agree with gays using the term marriage, doesn't automatically institute hatred. You can disagree and still love on people like Jesus. That is the problem with a lot of the over sensitive groups. Just because you disagree automatically means you hate that person or what they represent. There are stories where Jesus didn't agree with people...yet he still loved them.


Quote:I find it so interesting...if you believe being and/or acting gay is a sin, why is it okay to rant about homosexuality, yet we don't go walking up to fat people and rant to them about their gluttony?

I think we do. Look at our society today. What is the norm that we see all over. Skinny this, diet that. Again, we may view it as a sin, doesn't mean we have hate the people or even rant about it. Like you said, God will be the one who decides and judges, not us.
It is only through labor and painful effort, by grim energy and resolute courage, that we move on to better things. --Roosevelt
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#13
ibofightback Wrote:How would this not apply to a committed Christian gay couple?

If they were a Christian gay couple, they would understand that marriage is a Christian covenant between a man and woman and wouldn't complain about it, at least where the Christian church is concerned.

Now contrast that with how the government perceives it....a married couple should not have any extra rights or liberties than a gay couple. Simply label it differently, but uphold the freedoms, rights and liberties of people who are committed to each other.
It is only through labor and painful effort, by grim energy and resolute courage, that we move on to better things. --Roosevelt
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#14
This may not be popular, but I don't think we can call a gay couple Christian. A gay couple is openly living in sin. The Bible says homosexuality is a sin. I don't believe someone can be knowingly accepting and living in their sin and still be considered a Christian. Now, I know that all people sin and that the Grace of God washes us free of our sin, but we must be repentant of our sins for this. The problem with a gay couple is they are clearly not repentant, in fact they are openly accepting their sin or denying the Bible is true in calling it a sin.
I believe that someone who has homosexual feelings should be unconditionally loved, as Bridgett said. This is especially important for parents of people with homosexual feelings.
But, homosexual feelings need to be handled like any other feeling to commit a sin. If I had a feeling to kill my neighbor because he did something wrong to me, I wouldn't kill him and say it wasn't a sin because I "felt" I wanted to kill him. I would realize that to act on my feeling would be to commit a sin and would choose not to act as I was feeling. Same with homosexual feelings. Don't deny the feeling, but realize it is a sin and choose not to act in a sinful way.
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#15
I thought that would be the type of answer I'd get, I think I'll leave it at that.
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#16
I am sorry you don't like my "type" of anwser to your "committed christian gay couple" question. But, honestly, I didn't expect you to like it. You have openly stated you are not a Christian before, therefore I don't expect you to understand it.
My problem is not with someone having homosexual feelings. My problem is with calling someone who openly accepts their sin as ok a Christian. Sin gets in the way of having a personal relationship with God. The only way we can have that relationship with him, and therefore call ourselves Christians, is to have that sin washed away. The sin is can be washed away by repenting of it and therefore accepting the Grace of God and Jesus who died pay the debt of those sins.
The sin getting in the way of having a relationship with God can be many things, not just homosexuality. I would have just as much of a problem with calling a unrepentant liar a Christian.
If you aren't a Christian and wish to act on your homosexual feelings, feel free. I am not going to stop you, or tell you to stop. I just can't call you a Christian if you choose to act on it.
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#17
I didn't say I "liked it" or not. It's the answer I expected, I don't really have any pro or anti feelings about the response per se, my only real thought in response was about how open to interpretation the Bible is. You can argue the Bible says homosexuality is a sin, others argue differently, pointing out for example homosexuality is only mentioned rarely, and only in the Old Testament, and that the New Testament lifted requirement to follow old testament law..

I have no vested interest in either position Smile
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#18
The New Testament does actually refer to homosexuality. Also, not all sins ever mentioned in the Old Testament were lifted. Clearly murder and others are still sins.
The article you linked actually does agree with my point. It says that homosexual feelings aren't the sin, but that acting on them is.
I don't have a "vested" interest either way either. And, I truly feel we should love all people undconditionally. I am not going to put somoene down for having homosexual feelings. I simply believe that acting on it or other feelings of sin blocks one from having a personal relationship with God.
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#19
I didn't realize that Christians had taken over the definition of word marriage. Does this mean all others have to agree? As long as we demand that family protection laws only hold for marriage, it is difficult to see why people wouldn't want to get married legally.
Also, read Leviticus to see that you shouldn't cut your beard, you should beat your children, not eat lobster, etc. As long as we don't repent of these sins then can we be saved? BTW, eating the meat of the offering after the third day is an abomination. No freezing and putting it away for summer barbeque.
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#20
ss3251, does that mean marriage between two inactive homosexuals would be OK in your book?

Also, I think claims that the NT addresses homosexuality are a bit of an interpretive stretch.

This post has a reasonable overview of why.
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