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Utoya survivor speaks. Listen.
#21
ibofightback Wrote:
MichMan Wrote:It is truly heart wrenching to think about the grief that this deranged maniac has caused.

I too hope they can do better than 21-30 years in prison. The death penalty was created for monsters like this.


As I wrote on another forum (and where many Norwegians agreed with me) I simply don't understand this logic.

So you kill him. He's dead. No suffering, no remorse, not really any punishment. He's gone.

The alternative, he lives a long and horrible life, almost certainly in isolation, where he will (a) come to understand what he has done (b) see how utterly he failed

He has stated one of his motivations was to destroy the norwegian labour party because people will see what might happen to them if they join it.

Surprise surprise there's been a massive number of membership applications this week, to bother the senior and youth versions of the party.

To have to live a long life with what he has done is a far more just punishment then simply killing him.

Clearly also MichMan, you didn't listen to the Utoya survivor. Her response is repeated by all survivors I have heard, and virtually the entire country of Norway.

if one man can create
that much hate
you can imagine
how much love
we together can create
violence creates violence
hate breeds hate
That is not a good solution


She saw him kill her friends in front of her eyes. She ran and swam for her life, in terror.
She can see the folly of violence. Why can't you?


1- I did listen to the Utoya survivor. And I respect her opinion and admire her for her attitude. I also respect the opinion of each person and each society to balance justice and mercy. No doubt there were many victims of the Oklahoma City bombing or the 9/11 attacks who felt the same way.

2- Capital punishment for mass murders like this is not a process of hate. It is a process of punishment for a heinous crime.

3- I am not an absolutist on the death penalty. One of my best friends and associates is a very prominent attorney for the ACLU. I understand how the death penalty can be applied unfairly or how the wheels of 'justice' can be greased for political reasons, career advancement, etc. I also understand there may be medical or mental reasons as to why some people snap and commit murder. (as may be the case in the mass murder in Grand Rapids a few weeks ago) So I am all for keeping an open mind- just not to the point where your brains fall out of your head.

4- Your hope that the murderer "lives a long and horrible life, almost certainly in isolation, where he will (a) come to understand what he has done (b) see how utterly he failed" does not always work out that way. There is no evidence that Charles Manson, Kalihd Sheik Mohammad, Ted (Unabomber) Kazinski or other disturbed killers of this type have come to those conclusions. And no evidence that Timothy McVeigh would have come to those conclusions if he was allowed to live.

Also, there is always the possibility that the killer does not serve a life sentence. The Palestinian terrorists who hijacked the Achille Laurel ship and killed the American Jew Leon Klinghoffer never served their full sentence. The mastermind, as a matter of fact lived openly in the Gaza Strip and was eventually given immunity. He continued terrorist activities. His last acts were as a conduit to funnel money to the families of suicide bombers who killed Jews.

There is also the case of the Lockerbee bomber, who killed hundreds. He was to serve a full life term, but was released early. He was greeted in Egypt to fawning crowds, getting the royal treatment from the Egypt's royal family. This summer he was seen doing pep rallies for Mohammar Gadaffi. I don't think he ever came to your conclusions.

[Image: es_BPterrorist_721_copy_480x360.jpg]

Additionally, there is also the possibility that the killers continue to recruit others into their twisted thoughts and schemes, like these killers have.

Inside an Indonesian prison, convicted terrorists nurture radical jihad

The Associated Press was granted two days of unfettered access to Porong prison in early June by the chief warden, who wanted to show that changes were being made to limit the influence of jihadist inmates. While there were improvements, interviews with terrorists and other convicts show how openly the former still court some of the latter.

Bearded terrorists tend ducks, and fish splash in small ponds. Some militants play sports with other inmates, while others read the Quran or teach Islam to ordinary prisoners.

"We only explain what they should know about jihad," said Syamsuddin, who is serving a life sentence for his role in a gun attack on a karaoke club in Ambon that killed two Christians in 2005. "It's up to them whether to accept it or not." Syamsuddin was trained in bomb-making by alleged al-Qaida terrorist Omar al-Farouq.

Muhammad Syarif Tarabubun, a former police officer, was sentenced to 15 years for his role in the same attack. He laughed easily and smiled broadly as he explained his extremist views. He said he plans to join a jihad in Afghanistan, Iraq or Lebanon after his likely early release in 2013 for good behavior.

Nearby, nine men wearing traditional Muslim shirts sit on a floor listening intently to a religious lesson by Maulana Yusuf Wibisono, who stockpiled explosives for a 2004 suicide bombing of the Australian embassy in Jakarta that killed 10 people.


http://www.newser.com/article/d9o65s9o1/...jihad.html

So your conclusion that murders like this "will (a) come to understand what he has done (b) see how utterly he failed" is often nothing more than a pipe dream.

Regardless as to whether Anders Breivik ever comes to your conclusions, I do hope he stays in prison for the rest of his life and is not released in 20-30 years.

And I wish the best for the families and friends of the victims.
 Reply
#22
Bridgett Wrote:Forgiveness has nothing to do with the person you are forgiving. Forgiveness is a separate act, a decision, to release that person, regardless if they are sorry (have remorse). Forgiveness is not for the person being forgiven. It's for the person who wants to be free from the torment of unforgiveness--anger, resentment, and then bitterness.

However, to be clear, forgiveness doesn't mean that you must continue to put yourself in an abusive situation. That's dysfuntional, co-dependant stuff.


I agree. It is a personal thing, from the heart. And it truly works as you say when the person offering forgiveness does it without expecting anything in return.

Forgiveness as you define it should also not be confused with any kind of legal pardoning of the crime. Forgiveness on a personal level does not mean that the victim agrees that the offender should be absolved of the crime.

For example, two local parents of a girl killed by a drunk driver stated that they forgave the drunken driver and had even started a dialog with him. But they acknowledged that there are certain punishments for serious crimes. Nowhere did the article state that they believed the driver should be given any kind of a lighter sentence.
 Reply
#23
ibofightback Wrote:
Deb Wrote:My Great-Grandfather came across from Oslo - so yes, I have a long-distant love for Norway, also. But kooks/terrorists/bullies cross all borders and they come in all colors and creeds. The shooter had methodically planned this for months (years?) and used the cruelest kind of ammo (how many people bled out in the 2 hours it took the police to stop the guy?)


Actually the police had him in custody 61 minutes after the first call. Not bad for an isolated island with nearest land 40 minutes drive from Oslo and no police transport helicopter.

Quote:- he ranks right up there with the Oklahoma City bombers and the Unabomber for "Home-grown terrorists". The truly sad part is that he's going to get out of jail in 21 years (the max sentence for any crime in Norway). Hopefully, the Norwegian Gov't will bend the rules for THIS guy.

Sigh ... so sounds like the media there is trying to belitte poor old liberal Norway huh?

No - not at all. It was just *my* assessment of a country so sweet and gentle that they can't comprehend a crime so violent.

He's not going to get out in 21 years. If he's charged with "crimes against humanity", which they are considering, the sentence is 30 years.

Even with either that or the 21 year sentence he can be kept in custody as long as he is considered a danger, with re-evaluations every 5 years once his sentence is up.

In other words he'll probably be in prison for the rest of his life.


That's VERY good to know
 Reply
#24
ajgannon Wrote:... Actually, now I've come across an article about the criticisms (both internal and external) of the Norway police, and how they handled the tragedy.
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://news.yahoo.com/norway-police-slammed-slow-response-rampage-182759704.html">http://news.yahoo.com/norway-police-sla ... 59704.html</a><!-- m -->


Here's the problem: (copied from the above article): "Survivors said they struggled to get their panicked pleas heard because operators on emergency lines were rejecting calls not connected to the Oslo bomb."

THIS explains why help was so slow - the phones were undoubtably overloaded. And it's a pretty brilliant twist - this was a well-thought-out attack, unfortunately. I'm not sure this guy could ever have been stopped?
 Reply
#25
ibofightback Wrote:The alternative, he lives a long and horrible life, almost certainly in isolation, where he will (a) come to understand what he has done (b) see how utterly he failed

He has stated one of his motivations was to destroy the norwegian labour party because people will see what might happen to them if they join it.

Surprise surprise there's been a massive number of membership applications this week, to bother the senior and youth versions of the party.

To have to live a long life with what he has done is a far more just punishment then simply killing him.


Sorry - I don't agree with you. This guy is insane/sociopathic. He will justify what he did, to himself. God help us if he's able to justify it to someone else not locked up.
 Reply
#26
MichMan Wrote:2- Capital punishment for mass murders like this is not a process of hate. It is a process of punishment for a heinous crime.


Personally I think many years locked up waiting to die is more of a punishment than a short period locked up waiting to die.

Quote:4- Your hope that the murderer "lives a long and horrible life, almost certainly in isolation, where he will (a) come to understand what he has done (b) see how utterly he failed" does not always work out that way. There is no evidence that Charles Manson, Kalihd Sheik Mohammad, Ted (Unabomber) Kazinski or other disturbed killers of this type have come to those conclusions. And no evidence that Timothy McVeigh would have come to those conclusions if he was allowed to live.

Sure, I should have said "hopefully will", not "will"

Quote:There is also the case of the Lockerbee bomber, who killed hundreds. He was to serve a full life term, but was released early. He was greeted in Egypt to fawning crowds, getting the royal treatment from the Egypt's royal family. This summer he was seen doing pep rallies for Mohammar Gadaffi. I don't think he ever came to your conclusions.

Well, except for the problems there's still doubts as to whether he did it or no. No idea myself.

Quote:Additionally, there is also the possibility that the killers continue to recruit others into their twisted thoughts and schemes, like these killers have.

Not quite the same. For a start the Indonesian prisoners had large followings before they were imprisoned. ABB has none. Not to mention the differences in the way they run their prisons.

Quote:Regardless as to whether Anders Breivik ever comes to your conclusions, I do hope he stays in prison for the rest of his life and is not released in 20-30 years.

If he is, it will only happen if he has come to understand what he did and is "cured" and it's felt he can make a positive contribution to society. Unlikely.
 Reply
#27
Deb Wrote:
ajgannon Wrote:... Actually, now I've come across an article about the criticisms (both internal and external) of the Norway police, and how they handled the tragedy.
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://news.yahoo.com/norway-police-slammed-slow-response-rampage-182759704.html">http://news.yahoo.com/norway-police-sla ... 59704.html</a><!-- m -->


Here's the problem: (copied from the above article): "Survivors said they struggled to get their panicked pleas heard because operators on emergency lines were rejecting calls not connected to the Oslo bomb."

THIS explains why help was so slow - the phones were undoubtably overloaded. And it's a pretty brilliant twist - this was a well-thought-out attack, unfortunately. I'm not sure this guy could ever have been stopped?


Here's my problem - it wasn't a slow response!.

He was on an island. The closest land is 30-35 minutes drive from Oslo, at speed. Then you have a 10 minute boat trip to the island.

The "SWAT team" left Oslo than 8 minutes after the calls were received.

He was in custody 49 minutes later.

That's pretty much as fast as is humanely possible.
 Reply
#28
ibofightback Wrote:
Bridgett Wrote:Forgiveness has nothing to do with the person you are forgiving. Forgiveness is a separate act, a decision, to release that person, regardless if they are sorry (have remorse). Forgiveness is not for the person being forgiven. It's for the person who wants to be free from the torment of unforgiveness--anger, resentment, and then bitterness.


To me that's not forgiveness, that's something else.

:dontknow: What else is it then? :dontknow:
 Reply
#29
Don't know. Acceptance?

I see though that Forgivedoes have a definition I wasn't aware of -

1. To excuse for a fault or an offense; pardon.
2. To renounce anger or resentment against.
3. To absolve from payment of (a debt, for example).

Looks like Bridgett is using it in terms of #2.

Ya learn somethin' new ev'ry day! Big Grin
 Reply
#30
ibofightback Wrote:Personally I think many years locked up waiting to die is more of a punishment than a short period locked up waiting to die.

.


But we're a "humane" country Wink
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