Hello There, Guest!

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Utoya survivor speaks. Listen.
#11
MichMan Wrote:It is truly heart wrenching to think about the grief that this deranged maniac has caused.

I too hope they can do better than 21-30 years in prison. The death penalty was created for monsters like this.


As I wrote on another forum (and where many Norwegians agreed with me) I simply don't understand this logic.

So you kill him. He's dead. No suffering, no remorse, not really any punishment. He's gone.

The alternative, he lives a long and horrible life, almost certainly in isolation, where he will (a) come to understand what he has done (b) see how utterly he failed

He has stated one of his motivations was to destroy the norwegian labour party because people will see what might happen to them if they join it.

Surprise surprise there's been a massive number of membership applications this week, to bother the senior and youth versions of the party.

To have to live a long life with what he has done is a far more just punishment then simply killing him.

Clearly also MichMan, you didn't listen to the Utoya survivor. Her response is repeated by all survivors I have heard, and virtually the entire country of Norway.

if one man can create
that much hate
you can imagine
how much love
we together can create
violence creates violence
hate breeds hate
That is not a good solution


She saw him kill her friends in front of her eyes. She ran and swam for her life, in terror.
She can see the folly of violence. Why can't you?
 Reply
#12
ibofightback Wrote:
Deb Wrote:he ranks right up there with the Oklahoma City bombers and the Unabomber for "Home-grown terrorists". The truly sad part is that he's going to get out of jail in 21 years (the max sentence for any crime in Norway). Hopefully, the Norwegian Gov't will bend the rules for THIS guy.


Sigh ... so sounds like the media there is trying to belittle poor old liberal Norway huh? He's not going to get out in 21 years. If he's charged with "crimes against humanity", which they are considering, the sentence is 30 years.

Even with either that or the 21 year sentence he can be kept in custody as long as he is considered a danger, with re-evaluations every 5 years once his sentence is up.

In other words he'll probably be in prison for the rest of his life.

You're reacting to Deb's opinion, not the media's. I've been following the catastrophe on NPR news, AP, and the BBC, and I didn't hear any criticism of Norway's legal system. But I did read comments linked to news articles that voiced the same opinion as Deb.

... Actually, now I've come across an article about the criticisms (both internal and external) of the Norway police, and how they handled the tragedy.
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://news.yahoo.com/norway-police-slammed-slow-response-rampage-182759704.html">http://news.yahoo.com/norway-police-sla ... 59704.html</a><!-- m -->
 Reply
#13
That article is false. From the time the first report reached the police through to him being in their custody was 61 minutes. He also did not immediately surrender.

A journalist in a news helicopter, which was already in the air and went to the island when first reports were coming in, said the police arrived at the lake only "a few minutes" after them.

The criticism that he should have been identified beforehand is also ridiculous.

Gotta love the brilliance of hindsight
 Reply
#14
ibofightback Wrote:So you kill him. He's dead. No suffering, no remorse, not really any punishment. He's gone.

The alternative, he lives a long and horrible life, almost certainly in isolation, where he will (a) come to understand what he has done (b) see how utterly he failed

I agree with you regarding the death penalty. I think maybe justice often gets confused with revenge.
 Reply
#15
Here's a very inspiring and heart-wrenching story about a victim of a hate crime shortly after 9/11. He was shot in the face at close range and blinded in one eye. He worked to try to keep the murderer off death row. And the victim is a Muslim. The picture of the killer at the top of the article is a video when clicked. I heard an interview with this young immigrant late last night on the BBC Outlook program, when I couldn't sleep. I was amazed and heartbroken.
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-14199078">http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-14199078</a><!-- m -->
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00hzsq2#related-links">http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00hzsq2#related-links</a><!-- m -->
 Reply
#16
Examples like that, not necessarily of forgiveness ... but not of revenge, are extremely inspiring.

Personally I think the Nobel Prize Committee should award the Peace Prize to their own country's people this year. They've been amazing.
 Reply
#17
ibofightback Wrote:Examples like that, not necessarily of forgiveness ... but not of revenge, are extremely inspiring...

Why is the forgiveness part not inspiring, just the abstinence of revenge? Is it because it's difficult to relate to forgiveness of this magnitude? When I watched the video interview with the murderer in the link I provided, I thought to myself, "You thug!" According to the BBC Outlook interview, the victim is still dealing with pain from shot lodged inside his head.
 Reply
#18
ajgannon Wrote:
ibofightback Wrote:Examples like that, not necessarily of forgiveness ... but not of revenge, are extremely inspiring...

Why is the forgiveness part not inspiring, just the abstinence of revenge? Is it because it's difficult to relate to forgiveness of this magnitude? When I watched the video interview with the murderer in the link I provided, I thought to myself, "You thug!" According to the BBC Outlook interview, the victim is still dealing with pain from shot lodged inside his head.


Forgiveness can certainly be inspiring too, but depending on the circumstances I don't think forgiveness is necessarily warranted or healthy! If someone has no remorse for what they have done for example, or there's no obvious cause for their misbehaviour (eg extremely childhood abuse).

But to reject revenge as a response .... that's something that all not only can do, but should do if we want to improve this world - yet for the victims and their families, it is still an extraordinary challenge to overcome.
 Reply
#19
ibofightback Wrote:
ajgannon Wrote:
ibofightback Wrote:Examples like that, not necessarily of forgiveness ... but not of revenge, are extremely inspiring...

Why is the forgiveness part not inspiring, just the abstinence of revenge? Is it because it's difficult to relate to forgiveness of this magnitude? When I watched the video interview with the murderer in the link I provided, I thought to myself, "You thug!" According to the BBC Outlook interview, the victim is still dealing with pain from shot lodged inside his head.


Forgiveness can certainly be inspiring too, but depending on the circumstances I don't think forgiveness is necessarily warranted or healthy! If someone has no remorse for what they have done for example, or there's no obvious cause for their misbehaviour (eg extremely childhood abuse).

But to reject revenge as a response .... that's something that all not only can do, but should do if we want to improve this world - yet for the victims and their families, it is still an extraordinary challenge to overcome.


Forgiveness has nothing to do with the person you are forgiving. Forgiveness is a separate act, a decision, to release that person, regardless if they are sorry (have remorse). Forgiveness is not for the person being forgiven. It's for the person who wants to be free from the torment of unforgiveness--anger, resentment, and then bitterness.

However, to be clear, forgiveness doesn't mean that you must continue to put yourself in an abusive situation. That's dysfuntional, co-dependant stuff.
 Reply
#20
Bridgett Wrote:Forgiveness has nothing to do with the person you are forgiving. Forgiveness is a separate act, a decision, to release that person, regardless if they are sorry (have remorse). Forgiveness is not for the person being forgiven. It's for the person who wants to be free from the torment of unforgiveness--anger, resentment, and then bitterness.


To me that's not forgiveness, that's something else.
 Reply

 
Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)