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Brig Hart/MonaVie article-Yikes!
#31
Deb Wrote:
Bridgett Wrote:I think ibofightback is disagreeing (with Deb) that such changes occurred with the IBOAI. And is saying that they occurred within the Corporation.


(Being very careful about what I say here - the following is my opinion) I met with Jody in May of '08. By that time, the IBOAI had accumulated a mountain of 4" thick ring binders against certain AMO members who had been terminated for Rules violations. Because some of those certain people had been members of the IBOAI - there had been efforts put forth for a long time, to resolve the problems verbally, amongst friends, etc. The IBOAI didn't want to terminate one of their own - but eventually - they had no choice. Friendships/fellowships were set aside in favor of doing what was right for the Corporation and the IBOs.


Ok, yes. I see what you are saying. And I agree with you---that it wasn't like the entire Board was crap (but most were). And the ones who weren't, are the ones who were proactive in changing the direction of the Amway business, which would obviously cause some folks to want to leave.
On one of these threads I lay out the timeline going back to November of 2005 until TEAM's departure of August 2007, and all the little pieces to the puzzle--and those are only the pieces *I* know about. Smile
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#32
Bridgett Wrote:On one of these threads I lay out the timeline going back to November of 2005 until TEAM's departure of August 2007, and all the little pieces to the puzzle--and those are only the pieces *I* know about. Smile


And some of the stuff I think I know is conjecture. Reading-between-the-lines. Little snippets of long-ago conversations with people who KNEW stuff, like my Mom, my Grampa, Bill Halliday, the Tietsmas, and folks at the Corporation. Hearing things that were "off the record". So all I can offer is opinions...... Wink
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#33
Here are comments on another website from a person who is a Pearl Direct (Sapphire) in the Amway business. He was sponsored into the Brig Hart organization. The experiences are nearly identical to the ones I noticed and that have been repeated countless times by many.

It is interesting that even after going Direct (Platinum) and Pearl (Sapphire) so quickly, the AMO Amway business was unprofitable even after achieving the high level of success that most ibos never see. In the late 90s, Hart was still part of Yager's InterNet organization.


I got out of the scam in the late 1990′s after spending close to 8 years in Brig Hart’s Amway downline in Nebraska.

Got in through a business associate of my wife who came from over 150 miles away with his upline Direct Distributor. Fell hook line and sinker.

Believed in everything the Direct taught me and did everything the “right way”.

Rose to a direct distributor myself in relatively short time. Less then 6 months.


Meanwhile my direct was rapidly working his way to Emerald and before you could say 'sign up another' I had 4 Emeralds in my upline from Brig Hart’s Nebraska “group”.

My own business after many miles, dollars and countless sleepless nights had hit a wall and I couldn’t advance past the Pearl level.

My downline and upline blamed our lack of advancement on my unwillingness to become a born again distributor and wouldn’t attend the Sunday morning worship sessions and that end up giving more money to whatever cause Brig was promoting for that gathering.

I’m an accountant by trade and kept very good records of everything. When I finally lifted the fog from my eyes and quit going to meetings and buying all the tools it came to $100,000.00 in business expenses after my bonus check income for all the years I was “building my business”.


I really don’t know what it was that finally made the light come on about the tool portion of the business being the really big money maker. I liked the Amway products. I liked the idea of buying stuff that I used and getting a check for doing so and convincing others to do the same.

It took me a long time to get over the guilt I felt for getting other people to buy into this scam. I don’t believe I’m totally over it yet over 15 years since getting out.

Funny, I still buy the Amway products. Where the bonus goes for those products and to what upline today I got no idea. Further more I no longer care.

I hadn’t thought about my Amway days until someone contacted me last week about a “Business Opportunity” they wanted to share with me and invited me a tasting party. I owed this guy a favor and went only as a friend to help him out to meet his quota. All other such invites these many years were always turned down.

At the tasting party as an old MLMer I could see right through the presentation, but you can imagine my surprise when the speaker started talking about Brig Hart and got on his computer and started showing Brig, “showing the plan”. I can still spin the circles with the best of them.
Nothing had changed except the product.

So I came home tonight and goggled my old friend Brig and eventually came across your website.

It still saddens me so many people fall for these scams and lose money they can’t afford. And to read responses people make attacking you for trying to shed some light on it is almost comical.

Anyway just wanted to share my story and thank you for what you do. Like I said I still have guilt about what I did to others.

From such a large organization that I had, I no longer am friends or associate with any of them. Worst of all, my old friends that I had prior to Amway that chose not to get in are also no longer my friends.

I can truly say Amway changed my life. But sadly just like 99% of the folks, not in a positive way.


Going back to the Pokorny lawsuit and whether those victims "deserve" compensation- If people had experiences like this within the time frame covered by the settlement, then yes, they definitely "deserve it" by any definition of the word.
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#34
Quote:It is interesting that even after going Direct (Platinum) and Pearl (Sapphire) so quickly, the AMO Amway business was unprofitable even after achieving the high level of success that most ibos never see. In the late 90s, Hart was still part of Yager's InterNet organization.

Yet folk like me report being profitable at much lower levels. Yes, even in the 90s and even in the US, Michman. Clearly we are doing something different to this guy. So the problem isn't "the Amway business", it was however he was running his.

Quote:I’m an accountant by trade and kept very good records of everything. When I finally lifted the fog from my eyes and quit going to meetings and buying all the tools it came to $100,000.00 in business expenses after my bonus check income for all the years I was “building my business”

Which calculates out to losing over $1000/mth for nearly 8 years, after bonuses - which as a qualifying direct at that time would have been at least $2000-$3000 a month.

So he's claiming expenses of $3000 to $4000 a month.

Colour me skeptical.

Quote:I really don’t know what it was that finally made the light come on about the tool portion of the business being the really big money maker. I liked the Amway products. I liked the idea of buying stuff that I used and getting a check for doing so and convincing others to do the same.

Oh look. (a) knowingly breaking the rules with no retail customers and (b) anyone want to bet he was including personal product purchases as an expense?

Quote:Going back to the Pokorny lawsuit and whether those victims "deserve" compensation- If people had experiences like this within the time frame covered by the settlement, then yes, they definitely "deserve it" by any definition of the word.

Why? The guy was (a) spending ridiculously stupid amounts on expenses - his choice and (b) breaking the rules - also his choice

If he was an accountant then he's not stupid nor otherwise mentally disabled, so he's responsible for his on decisions. 8 years of losing thousands of dollars a month?
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#35
ibofightback Wrote:
Quote:Going back to the Pokorny lawsuit and whether those victims "deserve" compensation- If people had experiences like this within the time frame covered by the settlement, then yes, they definitely "deserve it" by any definition of the word.

Why? The guy was (a) spending ridiculously stupid amounts on expenses - his choice and (b) breaking the rules - also his choice

If he was an accountant then he's not stupid nor otherwise mentally disabled, so he's responsible for his on decisions. 8 years of losing thousands of dollars a month?


With all do respect, IBOFB, while I agree with the analysis of unusually high expenses, not being in our market, I can see why you might be opposed to MichMan's thoughts.

In America, we are not obligated to assume any responsibility for our actions or decisions, so it's unfair for you to not acknowledge that this poor man - having conducted business inappropriately and having spent a ridiculous amount of money apparently showing little or no return for such a lengthy time - was clearly a victim and deserving of compensation.

Let's not mince words...it *wasn't* HIS fault. Not at all.

And I am thankful for MichMan and his perspective, for without them, I would feel so much more responsibility for my actions and results, maybe to the point of actually having to change.

Now I am FREEEEEEEEEEE to be MEEEEEEEEE! LOL

Seriously, though...I hate the fact this clown makes it seem one cannot just make a great Amway business that - even if everything he claims is true - wouldn't solve the "money" problem he is so focused on.

Not making excuses for any abuse that *may* have occurred, but Amway has proven even more profitable - in my own experience - than what "the plans" would suggest (for reasons I have explained in other posts), and I find it hard to not imagine a business, with just a *little* prudence in spending, wouldn't overcome *most* anyone's financial woes.

As problems go, financial ones are the best ones to have, because you generally have 100% (or near) control over them...if you CHOOSE that responsibility, of course, which, state-side, we don't have to. Wink
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#36
We continue to go down this path of personal responsibility, and now, as also seems to be a pattern, we are bringing up stuff from forever-ago.
[Image: beatdeadhorse.gif]

As my husband said recently, in response to our town passing some laws which cater to the lowest common demoninator, and will be totally ineffective and hinder the progression of sane people , "You can't legislate common sense."
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#37
NOTE: The Pearl pin hasn't been around in the States for over a decade. And to clarify, it is not the equivalent to a Sapphire pin of today. If you had three legs all hit 7,500 PV ONE TIME in the same month, then you got to be called a Pearl---forever.
It was clearly an unprofitable pin, and probably a reason why they did away with it.
A Sapphire is a business that has had TWO legs, for SIX months, run 7,500 PV at the same time. More profitable than a Pearl pin for sure, though that side-volume is really important to have, otherwise most of that 4% from one of the legs would get passed upline to the next Platinum.
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#38
ibofightback Wrote:Yet folk like me report being profitable at much lower levels. Yes, even in the 90s and even in the US, Michman. Clearly we are doing something different to this guy. So the problem isn't "the Amway business", it was however he was running his.

...........Which calculates out to losing over $1000/mth for nearly 8 years, after bonuses - which as a qualifying direct at that time would have been at least $2000-$3000 a month.

So he's claiming expenses of $3000 to $4000 a month.

...Colour me skeptical.

...Oh look. (a) knowingly breaking the rules with no retail customers and (b) anyone want to bet he was including personal product purchases as an expense?

....The guy was (a) spending ridiculously stupid amounts on expenses - his choice and (b) breaking the rules - also his choice

If he was an accountant then he's not stupid nor otherwise mentally disabled, so he's responsible for his on decisions. 8 years of losing thousands of dollars a month?


1- This person's experience was not isolated. His experience is very typical of how the AMO-Amway business was run in the United States for many decades. The abuses were institutionalized. (It is humorous that you, who was never in the Yager organization, or the Gooch organization, have never built an organization in the United States, never attended a meeting in the United State and never visited the United States seem to come off like you are an expert on how the Yager groups operated in the United States.)

2- You overestimate the Amway income. You claim that as a direct his income would have been $2000-$3000 per month. Amway's own SA-4400 from that time era show that the average Direct income at the time was around $1500 per month. Eric Scheibeler, who was an Emerald in this same time period, not simply a Pearl as this man was, says that his Amway income topped out at $3300 per month. Our sponsors, who were Emeralds during the same time period and in the same Gooch organization, told us in confidence that their Amway income never rose above $3000. In our first full year as Direct/Platinum, our income was not $2000-$3000 per month. We declared a loss that year of around $20,000. (We were also audited that year. The IRS agent specifically looked to see if we were deducting products purchased for personal use, which we were not. The IRS accepted our tax return without one adjustment)

3- It stands to reason that the people in the Yager/Gooch organization were losing more money since proportionally they were spending more money on the "system." TEAM Diamonds claimed a 5-1 ratio of tool income Amway income. Gooch Diamonds claimed to make income that was over 8 parts tool income to one part Amway income. So it stands to reason that the people in their organization were going to lose more money.

4- It is easy for you to say that this guy should have stopped spending so much on tools. When Eric Scheibeler tried to do this, Yager Harteis cut off his tool income of up to $9000 dollars per month. Yager/Harteis got his downline together and gave them instructions on how to bypass him. Amway then revoked his distributorship, cutting off his Amway income of $3000 per month- His crime? Informing his downline that his upline was violating Amway's Rules of Conduct.

5- This abuse went on for decades with Amway's knowledge, which is bad enough. But to top it off, Amway defended these abuses in court. Look up the problems in the Gooch organization....Touchton lawsuit.... Double Diamond Hart's lawsuit.... Crown Ambassador Kenny Stewart's lawsuit... Hart's second lawsuit.. Chalie Schmitz' lawsuit. etc. Read the Morrison lawsuit which was brought by Emeralds and Diamonds in the Yager/Wilson/Haugen organization. SSDD....Same Sh1t, Different Diamond.

6- This man never stated that he didn't have any customers. You made that up. He simply repeated the "Buy From Yourself And Teach Others To Do The Same" mantra, that was uttered in thousands of Open Meetings,Seminars and conventions across the US every year.
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#39
Bridgett Wrote:we are bringing up stuff from forever-ago.
[Image: beatdeadhorse.gif]


This person's experience was relevant to the original post. Brig Hart talked about his experiences in Amway, the tool abuses and his view on religion. This is the eye witness account high level distributor in Hart's group during the same time period who backs up the article.

Secondly, we can look at it like beating a dead horse, or we can look at it as a sad and embarrassing period in the history of a good company. These stories would actually make good examples for corporate ethics training, if Amway ever wanted to do that.

When we teach children to love and accept people of different colors, how do we avoid talking about a period in our history when blatant discrimination was prevalent? How do you talk about it without mentioning people like George Wallace or Bull Connor?

Same thing here, if distributors today see actual examples of unethical and illegal abuses that went on in the Amway business, they will be more likely to avoid them and to keep their upline accountable.

There is also another quote attributed to George Santayana: "Those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it."
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#40
Well... it feels like your posts are more about you, than about whatever the thread is about. That's all.
Since you have no current experience of Amway, and your experience from yester-year was not pleasant, that's the stuff that you post about--unpleasant, negative stuff from years ago. And then try to make it in to a bigger more important reason ("let's not forget our mistakes so that we don't repeat them" kind of mantra) than it just being the simple fact that this stuff validates your bad experience.
I get it. It makes sense why you do it. That's what you are able to bring to the table.
It's been four years this month since I joined the online Amway conversation, so the stuff just gets old after awhile. But I'm not your audience, am I? Wink
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