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I still think it is a pyramid scheme...
#31
MM,

Contrary to the ... well, outright lies ... of some of the more prolific anti-Amway critics, I'm not exactly an inexperienced IBO .... Cool

In general one cannot effectively innovate in any arena without already being quite experienced in the field.

I don't know if "secret" is the right word though. When we try something, we certainly don't hide it from downline. We let them know it's being tested to see if it works and if it does we'll recommend it. "Grand Openings" in our LOA was a classic example. It did spread from WWDB to other groups, including mine in the US, and then some small test groups were set up to trial it in our system, and in different markets.

Neither downline, nor anyone else, will respect you if you treat them like children who can't be trusted.
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#32
ibofightback Wrote:MM,

Contrary to the ... well, outright lies ... of some of the more prolific anti-Amway critics, I'm not exactly an inexperienced IBO .... Cool

lol....I never claimed u were. Cool

ibofightback Wrote:In general one cannot effectively innovate in any arena without already being quite experienced in the field.

Agreed.

ibofightback Wrote:I don't know if "secret" is the right word though.

Bridgett gets the credit 4 that in this discussion; take your complaint (lol) to her. :grin:

ibofightback Wrote:When we try something, we certainly don't hide it from downline. We let them know it's being tested to see if it works and if it does we'll recommend it.


It's not that I advocating hiding things from a downline. In the past I've had an upline (not DSevern) hide things from me, and their secrecy did make me wonder and question our relationship. It's not that I advocate hiding things from a down line, rather in the context of this discussion I believe some things are best not advocated / advertised prematurely.

ibofightback Wrote:Neither downline, nor anyone else, will respect you if you treat them like children who can't be trusted.

I agree. But in a way, your downline are much like your children. Do u teach your children about the harsh realities of life, the "birds and the bees", and other mature themes right away? No. You practice healthy discernment with them *until* they reach a degree of growth and maturity.

Being honest and open doesnt necessarily mean that you have a totally open book with your children, or your downline.
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#33
ibofightback Wrote:I don't know if "secret" is the right word though.


It's not. Hence why I gave a little wink. Wink It was more of the scenario you are saying...that people are aware that some "testing" is going on, but they don't have to be in on all the details, if they are not involved in the testing. It's less confusing to work out the kinks, and present to them the stuff that works, rather than all our trail and error stumbling in the dark stuff.

And I think we can agree that innovation doesn't happen just to see how often we can change and learn to adapt. Innovation happens when something is either broken, or not working to its full potential. And that's how the Grand Openings were developed.

Ron Puryear has taught, in a multitude of ways, to not "leave money on the table." In other words, to recognize that a small percentage (the 80-20 rule) will actually want to sign up as IBOs to make money. But tapping in to that 80% was not happening. For those of us who know what it's like to show a gob of plans and not have any volume result, no matter how much we were following the original teaching of "Six nos--make them say "no" to you six times--from big biz, small biz, customer; and "offering three cookies--big biz, small biz, customer, we knew that something was broken.

So the grand openings were designed to expose products to family and friends, and allow them to be customers right off the bat, rather than the teaching, which was not working, of making everyone and their mother see the business opportunity first, even if it was to "just" get them as customers.

All that to say, if an IBO is actually doing what they are taught and it's working, then an IBO would have no reason to want to do something different than what they are being taught and what is working. But, as in the original example that IBOfightback used, about turning the paper 90 degrees, he did it because what he was originally doing WAS NOT WORKING.

Just as there is a danger to go "rogue," there is an equal danger to keep doing what you are told to do, even though it's pretty obvious that it's not working. Not good for trusting your intuition, nor for your self-esteem. :blink:
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#34
Bridgett Wrote:So the grand openings were designed to expose products to family and friends, and allow them to be customers right off the bat, rather than the teaching, which was not working, of making everyone and their mother see the business opportunity first, even if it was to "just" get them as customers.

What an irony, and an interesting one at that! :thumbsup: If one goes back to archived Utube R. DeVos speeches, one will hear Rich teaching the e-x-a-c-t same thing. Talk about a bu$ine$$ going full circle from the origin of it's roots. However I've never heard of a "Grand Opening" used in this context.

How exactly r they done?

How do IBO'$ advertise them, and r grand openings designed only 4 the family and friends of IBO'$?

How is one now taught to upgrade a customer into a small or a big bu$ine$$ builder?
Confusedcratch:
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#35
Having caught up on this topic I did want to say a few things. As far as I've known and heard from any of Ron's teachings in the last 1 1/4 years he's never mentioned to agree with it being a pyramid. I've been to all the major functions and nothing he's mentioned says to say that. Maybe in the past who knows.

If someone says they think it's a pyramid I just say pyramids are illegal, I'm not in anything that's illegal. I jokingly ask them how does it work where you work? Draw them out the corporate pyramid, always get a laugh. Pyramid schemes are where no products and services are exchanged for money and or where someone gets profit from recruiting you. Both of these are not what Amway does. Pretty much that shuts the negative "it's a pyramid wimps up". If need be then I just mention so yeah this "illegal" thing I'm in, guess the Lawyers or Best Buy and Sears missed that little fact and they decided to join up with something illegal. Or for the fact that Easter Seals (an amazing charity for children in need) allows illegal companies to give them money. Again not much argument after that.

This is all in my 1 1/4 years so far in the business and I've not been challenged after that little bit of education I give.
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#36
[quote="expeditionoftruths" If need be then I just mention so yeah this "illegal" thing I'm in, guess the Lawyers or Best Buy and Sears missed that little fact and they decided to join up with something illegal. Or for the fact that Easter Seals (an amazing charity for children in need) allows illegal companies to give them money. Again not much argument after that.

This is all in my 1 1/4 years so far in the business and I've not been challenged after that little bit of education I give.[/quote]

LOL!! I LIKE that!

As an aside: (and this does NOT refer to Amway) - how many times have you read something that say "be making $5,000/wk in 6 weeks" and the first thing it says is: "THIS IS NOT A SCAM!"

If you're like cynical ol' ME - the first thing that you think is "uh, suuuuuuure it's not a scam Rolleyes"

But maybe it's just something that those of us with warped senses of humor just like? My "tag line" was ""I'll tell you what I do for a living if you promise not to scream and run" Wink
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#37
Found the following while surfing:

8. 1. Pyramid scheme accusations

Amway has several times been accused of being a pyramid scheme. A 1979 FTC investigation in the United States (see below), a 1997 Belgian court [63] and a 2008 court judgement in the United Kingdom all dismissed these claims. [64]

8. 1. 1. FTC investigation

Main article: In re Amway Corp.

In a 1979 ruling, [16] [65] the Federal Trade Commission found that Amway does not qualify as a pyramid scheme since Amway compensation system is based on retail sales to consumers, not payments for recruiting.

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://wapedia.mobi/en/Amway?t=6">http://wapedia.mobi/en/Amway?t=6</a><!-- m -->.
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#38
Found this also:

"PREPARED STATEMENT OF
DEBRA A. VALENTINE, GENERAL COUNSEL FOR
THE U.S. FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION
on "PYRAMID SCHEMES"

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.ftc.gov/speeches/other/dvimf16.shtm">http://www.ftc.gov/speeches/other/dvimf16.shtm</a><!-- m -->

Excellent content though it is very technical and a very dry read 4 most ppl.
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#39
Yeah, I wrote the first one Smile
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#40
Multimillionaire Wrote:Found this also:

"PREPARED STATEMENT OF
DEBRA A. VALENTINE, GENERAL COUNSEL FOR
THE U.S. FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION
on "PYRAMID SCHEMES"

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.ftc.gov/speeches/other/dvimf16.shtm">http://www.ftc.gov/speeches/other/dvimf16.shtm</a><!-- m -->

Excellent content though it is very technical and a very dry read 4 most ppl.


I found the reading to be quite upstanding. Thank you Smile Maybe because I hope to come armed for my first showing... and I'm expecting "it's a scheme".
“Opportunities multiply as they are seized.” – Sun Tzu
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