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I still think it is a pyramid scheme...
#21
ibofightback Wrote:to quote one of our CEP (SOT) from earlier this year - "system says show the plan, it doesn't dictate how"

if nobody tries out new things, how does innovation and improvement occur?


I suppose the best way to make me point is to share the following example with you.

When an IBO (IBO A) STP's / draws the "magic circles" in exactly the same way his/ her upline does, it can be extremely empowering to IBO A.

After IBO A has assembled even a small group, the more $ucce$$ful upline may come in and show the plan (aka...the "magic circles") and does so in the exact manner as IBO A has already previously done. This gives IBO A tremendous credibility to those who s/he has already sponsored. The downline sees that IBO A has been showing the "magic circles" in the exact same manner as their more $ucce$$ful upline and it's communicates (at the very minimum) two VERY important things: 1) It demonstrates that, in terms of preaching the concept of duplication, IBO A has not only been "talking the "talk", but that IBO A is in fact duplicating what s/he has been taught by their more $ucce$$ful upline. 2) It gives the more $ucce$$ful upline the powerful opportunity to edify the leadership of IBO A to his/her downline. Once the downline sees that IBO A is showing the 'magic circles' in the exact same manner as their more $ucce$$ful upline, the upline can personally instruct IBO A's downline of how important it is to follow the leadership of IBO A. :thumbsup:

Since (for lack of a better word,) IBO A is in true duplication with his/her upline, the downline can be placed in a situation of feeling v-e-r-y confident in following IBO A's teaching/ leadership knowing that it is only a matter of time until IBO A is in a similar position as his/her upline BECAUSE they are doing the bu$ine$$ in the exact same manner.
:thumbsup:
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#22
Yes, IBO A has the freedom of injecting their own personality into the plans they show, but it remains CRITICALLY IMPORTANT that IBO A STP's using the EXACT SAME FORMAT that their upline does.

If one is not duplicating what their upline shows on the board, how is the IBO truly practicing the concept of duplication?
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#23
To quote my upline Diamond (who happens to be Founders Crown Ambassador) - "don't get system constipated". They are generally considered one of the kings of duplication, having spread their business around the world extremely rapidly. His catch phrase is "it's not what works, it's what duplicates".

The CD I quoted - "the system says show the plan, it doesn't say how" - was from someone who grew up in the business and recently went Diamond and Founders Diamond in the same year, and has merged their business with a Founders Crown Ambassador's business (a different FCA to the one I quoted), and together they lead the largest single "system" in the world.

A new IBO who has no idea what to do should quite obviously begin by straight duplication, it's how you learn and get started but it's also important that people can inject their own personalities and ownership in to what they are doing. A "system" needs to allow for this, otherwise what you'll end up with is a bunch of people willing to blindly following what their upline does, no matter what, and a (larger) bunch of people for whom it didn't suit who give up and go do something else and tell people it doesn't work.

hmmmm .... sound familiar?

Duplication does not require you walking in to the living room with the same limp as your upline, I'm sure you'd agree? You're not duplicating their age, looks, experiences, accent, size of business etc etc etc. A duplicatible plan needs to be a flexible plan.

What's more, new people are innovating whether we like it or not. That's one way they learn what doesn't work, and discover it's exactly what we've been telling them doesn't work - which actually gives us credibility. But every now and then, out of that innovation can come something that does improve in what we're doing, and if it can be duplicated it can be spread throughout the network helping all. But a downline needs to know they can intelligently discuss this with their upline, otherwise they'll do it anyway and they'll be no discussion, no innovation, and no sharing.

In the 21st century, businesses that don't innovate, die.
 Reply
#24
Multimillionaire Wrote:So..... you would recommend that ppl STAY AWAY from attitude sessions made b4 the year 2000 by the great Masters of this bu$ine$$ such as Dave Severn, Ron Puryear, Bill Britt, Dexter Yager, Bob Crisp, Roland Hughes, Rich DeVos, Rick Setzer...and far-r too many others to count? Bridget, I feel u are viewing only one side of a two sided coin: Yes, I agree, bu$ine$$ building technique$ DO change.. over time ....they change with technology. However, bu$ine$$ building principle$ do not.


If you can not differentiate between the ATTITUDE and SPECIFIC DECADE-SENSITIVE AND CULTURE-SENSITIVE VERBIAGE, and if you do not realize that SPECIFIC DECADE-SENSITIVE AND CULTURE-SENSITIVE VERBIAGE is a BUSINESS-BUILDING TECHNIQUE, then yes, Multimillionaire, I would recommend you stay away all those ATTITUDE sessions. :good:
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#25
ibofightback Wrote:To quote my upline Diamond (who happens to be Founders Crown Ambassador) - "don't get system constipated". They are generally considered one of the kings of duplication, having spread their business around the world extremely rapidly. His catch phrase is "it's not what works, it's what duplicates".

The CD I quoted - "the system says show the plan, it doesn't say how" - was from someone who grew up in the business and recently went Diamond and Founders Diamond in the same year, and has merged their business with a Founders Crown Ambassador's business (a different FCA to the one I quoted), and together they lead the largest single "system" in the world.

A new IBO who has no idea what to do should quite obviously begin by straight duplication, it's how you learn and get started but it's also important that people can inject their own personalities and ownership in to what they are doing. A "system" needs to allow for this, otherwise what you'll end up with is a bunch of people willing to blindly following what their upline does, no matter what, and a (larger) bunch of people for whom it didn't suit who give up and go do something else and tell people it doesn't work.

hmmmm .... sound familiar?

Duplication does not require you walking in to the living room with the same limp as your upline, I'm sure you'd agree? You're not duplicating their age, looks, experiences, accent, size of business etc etc etc. A duplicatible plan needs to be a flexible plan.

What's more, new people are innovating whether we like it or not. That's one way they learn what doesn't work, and discover it's exactly what we've been telling them doesn't work - which actually gives us credibility. But every now and then, out of that innovation can come something that does improve in what we're doing, and if it can be duplicated it can be spread throughout the network helping all. But a downline needs to know they can intelligently discuss this with their upline, otherwise they'll do it anyway and they'll be no discussion, no innovation, and no sharing.

In the 21st century, businesses that don't innovate, die.

Yes there is a lot of truth to what u say, however, by the same token, there is another die hard, rock solid principle that bu$ine$$ leaders in Amway have taught / preached for man-n-y years ...."Don't try anything new 4 the 1st time without counseling upline."

In terms of being innovative, u r quite correct, in as long as it's the leadership that's being innovative, and not the newer members of the organization.

This all reminds me of something I heard DSevern say on a tape...(paraphrased) .... if it worked doing it YOUR WAY, we'd be doing it YOUR WAY!

Dave has such a way with words! :grin:
 Reply
#26
Bridgett Wrote:
Multimillionaire Wrote:So..... you would recommend that ppl STAY AWAY from attitude sessions made b4 the year 2000 by the great Masters of this bu$ine$$ such as Dave Severn, Ron Puryear, Bill Britt, Dexter Yager, Bob Crisp, Roland Hughes, Rich DeVos, Rick Setzer...and far-r too many others to count? Bridget, I feel u are viewing only one side of a two sided coin: Yes, I agree, bu$ine$$ building technique$ DO change.. over time ....they change with technology. However, bu$ine$$ building principle$ do not.


If you can not differentiate between the ATTITUDE and SPECIFIC DECADE-SENSITIVE AND CULTURE-SENSITIVE VERBIAGE, and if you do not realize that SPECIFIC DECADE-SENSITIVE AND CULTURE-SENSITIVE VERBIAGE is a BUSINESS-BUILDING TECHNIQUE, then yes, Multimillionaire, I would recommend you stay away all those ATTITUDE sessions. :good:


Bridgett ---once again--- my comment above about attitude sessions was made in reference to your comment below:

"I really do not think listening to, nor refering to audios from the 80s, 90s, even 00s is beneficial on sooooooo many levels."

I was merely demonstrating why one should be v-e-r-y careful when making blanket statements such as yours above. Wink

Btw, no offense was intended.
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#27
Multimillionaire Wrote:[b][i][color=#0000FF]Deb, While I do agree with your pov above, and I believe your r very accurate from your own particular perspective, (which is an insiders pov,) I believe your overlooking a wee small point...the critics pov.


I mostly offered that to the IBOs who might get into a debate about "pyramids" with prospects. Even in my most "critic-y" phase - I ALWAYS knew that Amway much less like a pyramid than most companies - but yes, I have a definite view from the inside Wink
 Reply
#28
ajgannon Wrote:I would agree with Mulimillionaire that "attitude" talks are probably still relevant.

I should have used "definately" in place of "probably". My support team does still embrace a few of the classics. But they're predominately moving forward and embracing change.
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#29
Multimillionaire Wrote:
ibofightback Wrote:To quote my upline Diamond (who happens to be Founders Crown Ambassador) - "don't get system constipated". They are generally considered one of the kings of duplication, having spread their business around the world extremely rapidly. His catch phrase is "it's not what works, it's what duplicates".

The CD I quoted - "the system says show the plan, it doesn't say how" - was from someone who grew up in the business and recently went Diamond and Founders Diamond in the same year, and has merged their business with a Founders Crown Ambassador's business (a different FCA to the one I quoted), and together they lead the largest single "system" in the world.

A new IBO who has no idea what to do should quite obviously begin by straight duplication, it's how you learn and get started but it's also important that people can inject their own personalities and ownership in to what they are doing. A "system" needs to allow for this, otherwise what you'll end up with is a bunch of people willing to blindly following what their upline does, no matter what, and a (larger) bunch of people for whom it didn't suit who give up and go do something else and tell people it doesn't work.

hmmmm .... sound familiar?

Duplication does not require you walking in to the living room with the same limp as your upline, I'm sure you'd agree? You're not duplicating their age, looks, experiences, accent, size of business etc etc etc. A duplicatible plan needs to be a flexible plan.

What's more, new people are innovating whether we like it or not. That's one way they learn what doesn't work, and discover it's exactly what we've been telling them doesn't work - which actually gives us credibility. But every now and then, out of that innovation can come something that does improve in what we're doing, and if it can be duplicated it can be spread throughout the network helping all. But a downline needs to know they can intelligently discuss this with their upline, otherwise they'll do it anyway and they'll be no discussion, no innovation, and no sharing.

In the 21st century, businesses that don't innovate, die.

Yes there is a lot of truth to what u say, however, by the same token, there is another die hard, rock solid principle that bu$ine$$ leaders in Amway have taught / preached for man-n-y years ...."Don't try anything new 4 the 1st time without counseling upline."

In terms of being innovative, u r quite correct, in as long as it's the leadership that's being innovative, and not the newer members of the organization.

This all reminds me of something I heard DSevern say on a tape...(paraphrased) .... if it worked doing it YOUR WAY, we'd be doing it YOUR WAY!

Dave has such a way with words! :grin:


MM,
Even in the land of Dave Severn and WWDB, change *has* happened because of people trying new things. The point is not to go implement it in to your group, if the person innovating has a group, before running it by upline. The point being that, let's make sure it's a good idea before putting it in your group, since once something is in a group, it's hard to pull it out.

A recent example are the Grand Openings. Many people, from different LOSs in WWDB were (secretly Wink ) doing things like grand openings. And willing to do some trial and error and fine tune the process. Once they learned what worked and didn't work, they brought the ideas AND DATA upline. Who brought the ideas AND DATA up-upline. Then WWDB, as an organization, unrolled the idea to all levels, and offered support like invitations and signage and training. This then spread to other LOAs, and is even now available all Amway North America, with training modules at Amway's Learning Center.
 Reply
#30
Bridgett Wrote:
Multimillionaire Wrote:
ibofightback Wrote:To quote my upline Diamond (who happens to be Founders Crown Ambassador) - "don't get system constipated". They are generally considered one of the kings of duplication, having spread their business around the world extremely rapidly. His catch phrase is "it's not what works, it's what duplicates".

The CD I quoted - "the system says show the plan, it doesn't say how" - was from someone who grew up in the business and recently went Diamond and Founders Diamond in the same year, and has merged their business with a Founders Crown Ambassador's business (a different FCA to the one I quoted), and together they lead the largest single "system" in the world.

A new IBO who has no idea what to do should quite obviously begin by straight duplication, it's how you learn and get started but it's also important that people can inject their own personalities and ownership in to what they are doing. A "system" needs to allow for this, otherwise what you'll end up with is a bunch of people willing to blindly following what their upline does, no matter what, and a (larger) bunch of people for whom it didn't suit who give up and go do something else and tell people it doesn't work.

hmmmm .... sound familiar?

Duplication does not require you walking in to the living room with the same limp as your upline, I'm sure you'd agree? You're not duplicating their age, looks, experiences, accent, size of business etc etc etc. A duplicatible plan needs to be a flexible plan.

What's more, new people are innovating whether we like it or not. That's one way they learn what doesn't work, and discover it's exactly what we've been telling them doesn't work - which actually gives us credibility. But every now and then, out of that innovation can come something that does improve in what we're doing, and if it can be duplicated it can be spread throughout the network helping all. But a downline needs to know they can intelligently discuss this with their upline, otherwise they'll do it anyway and they'll be no discussion, no innovation, and no sharing.

In the 21st century, businesses that don't innovate, die.

Yes there is a lot of truth to what u say, however, by the same token, there is another die hard, rock solid principle that bu$ine$$ leaders in Amway have taught / preached for man-n-y years ...."Don't try anything new 4 the 1st time without counseling upline."

In terms of being innovative, u r quite correct, in as long as it's the leadership that's being innovative, and not the newer members of the organization.

This all reminds me of something I heard DSevern say on a tape...(paraphrased) .... if it worked doing it YOUR WAY, we'd be doing it YOUR WAY!

Dave has such a way with words! :grin:


MM,
Even in the land of Dave Severn and WWDB, change *has* happened because of people trying new things. The point is not to go implement it in to your group, if the person innovating has a group, before running it by upline. The point being that, let's make sure it's a good idea before putting it in your group, since once something is in a group, it's hard to pull it out.

A recent example are the Grand Openings. Many people, from different LOSs in WWDB were (secretly Wink ) doing things like grand openings. And willing to do some trial and error and fine tune the process. Once they learned what worked and didn't work, they brought the ideas AND DATA upline. Who brought the ideas AND DATA up-upline. Then WWDB, as an organization, unrolled the idea to all levels, and offered support like invitations and signage and training. This then spread to other LOAs, and is even now available all Amway North America, with training modules at Amway's Learning Center.


My point is the principle u r talking about above, (the concept of innovation,) is the exception, it should definitely NOT be the standard or the rule; imo it's walking a VERY fine line. If it were treated as the standard, it would be like saying to the training system of CORE, "You really don't know what the hell your talking about. Your teachings r much too archaic and have not kept up with changing times, so instead we're going to reinvent the wheel and design our own training, we r going to redesign CORE."

With that being stated there is another side to the coin as being innovative helped eternal Emeralds Tom and Val Gonser go Diamond, *but* in the hands of many inexperienced IBO's it can be v-e-r-y dangerous, and it's certainly not a principle that should be taught. And you are quite correct, when techniques like those are created, they ARE created in secret.

My bottom line: One must be v-e-r-y careful with innovation (aka...the lone wolf syndrome) as the concept is difficult to duplicate in terms of an organization practicing it as a whole, which is one crucial element 4 building a huge (and profitable) organization.
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