Hello There, Guest!

  •  Previous
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • ...
  • 13
  • Next 
  •  
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
"Religious Freedom" crosses the line??
#31
Wearyeyed Wrote:But the fact innocent people might die for doing so seems like a far bigger issue to be addressed - and corrected - than the social blunder precipitating it.

That's really scaring me...


The scary part is that *I* have more faith in the "spookiness" of the American Public...than I do in "Gov't Intelligence" to stop something frightening from happening.

IBOFB: I also have faith in those folks who support the 2nd Amendment and are armed :thumbsup: Obama created a LOT more of them :rotfl: Heck - in my area, I suspect the majority of folks are "carrying"?
 Reply
#32
The Christian vs Muslim issue I have put a lot of thought into...... The way I tend to look at things is take the long term view of what dominate thought pattern produces. Because as various people have stated there is the extremists in every religion.....

For example, (broadly speaking) Countries settled by Catholics don't have the wealth that countries settled by protestant. Hence I thinks protestant religion is more beneficial than Catholic. My brother is Catholic by adult conversion and we as a family have been significantly helped by the Catholic community at various times in our lives. So I am not anti Catholic nor have a vendetta against them. (We could also talk about corruption or sexual abuse issues, but lets not go there).

My view on Muslim / Islam faith stems from an analysis that that had both percentage of Muslims in the population of country along with counties that either were currently in a war/conflict, or had been recently. What was very disturbing was once the Muslims made up a particular percentage of population there was a very high correlation with war. (the article wasn't actually making this point). This tells me that fundamentally just as protestant thought patterns in the long run produce a wealthy country, Islamic thought in the long run produces armed conflict.

As for the specific incident. American culture and "Christian" cultural have unfortunately become well and truly intertwined. I would argue that it is American culture that burns books. I have never heard of a NZ burning a book as a statement. However in popular culture it isn't uncommon to have Americans burning books. And because Christian and American have become so aligned as a concept, book burning has become "christian". Which I find very disturbing.
 Reply
#33
MichMan Wrote:And there was no violence when Snead O'Connor ...

Her name is Sinead O'Connor. (Sorry, the Irish music fan had to point that out.)
A "snead" is a product made from "Truffula Trees" in the book "The Lorax" by Dr. Seuss. (I can't believe I remember that. I haven't read that book in almost 30 years!)
 Reply
#34
Great comments by y'all! :thumbsup: You know, I actually felt like talking about this topic with someone. The people I felt like talking to are the people on this forum. :hug: I didn't want to bring it up because this site is supposed to be about Amway, and we've already spanked Shatto. Thanks Deb for starting the thread.
 Reply
#35
Wearyeyed Wrote:I still can't find one ounce of acknowledgement - or debate - over the fact we are all reacting primarily on the expectation there will be violence, possibly innocent deaths, over this ill-advised, but violence-free expression of opinion.

Look, the guy is nutty...he opposes blatantly offensive acts influenced by a religious belief by committing, from a religious pulpit, a blatantly offensive act.

Granted, "offensive" means "violence" in one case, vs. "tasteless demonstration" to another, but the idiocy is clear: it's not even debatable that the BBQ is not the optimal way to express oneself, and most of us got that.

But, what kind of world are we promoting that dilutes non-violent opinion on the threat of violent response?

Don't go out of your way to offend someone is good sense.

But the fact innocent people might die for doing so seems like a far bigger issue to be addressed - and corrected - than the social blunder precipitating it.

That's really scaring me...


Wearyeyed,

Maybe a lesson in Islam? I'm not going to get in to the Qur'an and what it says and doesn't say. Last time we got in to that, IBOFB locked the thread.

But here is a link to an ACADEMIC talk about the history of Islam. Violence has always been a part of its history. The founder of the religion spread the "good news" by conquering (aka killing). <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.isi.org/lectures/flvplayer/lectureplayer.aspx?file=v000233_forte_060708.flv&dir=flv%2Flectures">http://www.isi.org/lectures/flvplayer/l ... 2Flectures</a><!-- m -->

Now we can point fingers as folk who've killed in the name of Christ, but the facts are facts that Jesus Himself, the "founder" of Christianity did NOT spread His message in such a manner. In fact, I think it would do some good for those who call themselves Christians to study what was happening in Jesus' time that made His message so radical. His Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5-7 <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%205-7&version=ESV">http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=ESV</a><!-- m -->
has been repeated so much that I think people, even Christians, have forgotten how amazingly awesome this is.

And many do not have the historical context to understand how breathtakingly absurd it was. He was asking these people, who were being oppressed, and family members were being killed, and children were being burned alive, to love their oppressors and their killers, and to pray for them???

I highly recommend Philip Yancey’s book “The Jesus I Never Knew.” <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-I-Never-Knew/dp/031021923X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1284178453&sr=8-1">http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-I-Never-Kne ... 453&sr=8-1</a><!-- m -->

I find nothing “radical” about killing—whether physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, relationally. We are naturally brutal to one another. But I do find it radical to love. To love the way the Bible describes love in 1 Corinthians 13. Another passage that has been read so many times, that people have become too used to it, and that the awesomeness of it can be lost…

1If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.
4Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant 5or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. 7Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
13So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.


I simply cannot love without God. In my fleshly, selfish ways, I can only love, this kind of love, real love, with God. And to admit my reliance on Him means to give up my pride and my self-sufficiency. Basically to “die to myself” as Jesus talks about.

And if I’m to do such a thing, then I do really believe what I say I believe? Am I a true follower of Jesus Christ, or am I a "cultural" Christian? Do I have faith the size of a mustard seed? Do I really believe what Jesus says all throughout Scripture? Do I even know what the Bible says? Do I read it, do I study it, do I meditate on it, do I memorize it? It's God's way of talking to me. Am I allowing Him to speak to me? Am I allowing myself to have a relationship with Him?

Do I believe Jesus when He says in John 16:33 “I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.".

Do I believe Jesus in Revelation 21:4 when He promises that in Heaven “[God] will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.".

Or am I allowing the enemy to steal the focus, and take my eyes off of Jesus?
 Reply
#36
ibofightback Wrote:I do wonder what the thousands of Muslims fighting, and dying, for the United States think of the biblical verses in their guns, in such a context. Incidentally they were removed after the NZ armed forces complained about them.


I didn't hear that they were no longer using them. It makes me very proud to think it was the NZ guys who got it changed. Bridgett I agree with IBOFB with this one. There are multiple issues with this.... which include:

Using a verse on a killing machine. I have no problem with people hunting as long as they extract maximum food/usefulness out of the death ie minimal waste. I find it very difficult to think that these scopes could be used for trophy hunting. Trophy hunting is very wasteful when only the head/horns/tail whatever it kept/used. I think that the bible is rather strong on wasting or damaging God's creation. So if they were selling these scopes - they should of at least put a disclaimer on about using the scopes to feed/look after people. Not for trophy only, and definitely not for human killing. Also the manufacturer must have known that they might end up at war - I assume that the US defense force didn't just order 10 of these scopes.......

Secondly someone from the defense force approved the scopes. He/She should have rejected them out right for the verse on them.

Thirdly individual soldiers should have flagged them as inappropriate. I don't care if they write nasty messages on the bombs with chalk - as long as they are not scripture - nor mention God. But to put a quote from God on a human killing machine I find very offensive. And I find it very difficult to think that God's words should be invoked in such an intimate way in a war.
 Reply
#37
Okie dokie, then.
 Reply
#38
Am I snickering at inappropriate times? Blush
 Reply
#39
stickshark Wrote:
ibofightback Wrote:I do wonder what the thousands of Muslims fighting, and dying, for the United States think of the biblical verses in their guns, in such a context. Incidentally they were removed after the NZ armed forces complained about them.


I didn't hear that they were no longer using them. It makes me very proud to think it was the NZ guys who got it changed. Bridgett I agree with IBOFB with this one.


Um...I don't think I even responded to IBOFB. Confusedcratch:
And I do believe I acknowledged that people have done things "in the name of Christ" when I said,
Bridgett Wrote:Now we can point fingers as folk who've killed in the name of Christ, but the facts are facts that Jesus Himself, the "founder" of Christianity did NOT spread His message in such a manner.


And John 8:12 is such a hateful verse, When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

Would they have been offended if the gunmakers put a Chinese Proverb there instead? "Better to light a candle than to curse the darkness?"

IBOFB apparently has been effective at diverting the conversation to something that is not at all of what I was talking about--not in the beginning of this thread, and not even now. Wink

Oh wait, maybe you meant to address Deb? Yeah I know, all women look alike. Smile Speaking of which, what exactly are Muslim women going to be doing in Paradise with all those wide-eyed virgins. :hmm:
 Reply
#40
Bridgett Wrote:
stickshark Wrote:
ibofightback Wrote:I do wonder what the thousands of Muslims fighting, and dying, for the United States think of the biblical verses in their guns, in such a context. Incidentally they were removed after the NZ armed forces complained about them.


I didn't hear that they were no longer using them. It makes me very proud to think it was the NZ guys who got it changed. Bridgett I agree with IBOFB with this one.


Um...I don't think I even responded to IBOFB. Confusedcratch:

Opps my bad - dyslexic wire crossing - that should be Deb
 Reply
  •  Previous
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • ...
  • 13
  • Next 
  •  

 
Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)