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The problem with critics
#11
no idea, I haven't been paying attention! Can't remember when I even last read his blogs. Jed? That's a new one. There was Peter Parker also wasn't there?
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#12
ibofightback Wrote:
stickshark Wrote:If they were open and honest about stuff for example- a press release saying what LOA's had tool profit, what it was, how it worked and apologize for the abuses that have occurred, gave details about what groups and what % of their business came from those groups etc etc etc.


First of all that would mean highlighting an issue to the press that simple isn't an issue for the vast vast vast majority of people, not even for most current and former ABOs. Secondly it's possibly not even legal - revealing private corporate details about third part companies?


I agree - and furthermore, aside from looking the other way while the worst of the abuses occurred - Amway isn't at fault.

I think the "new approach" is correct: the Corp/IBOAI finally drew a line in the sand and said "don't cross this". Those who couldn't abide by the new openness/Rules/Accreditation have gone elsewhere. Eventually the ugliness of the past will be replaced by fresh new faces and honest attitudes.

Yes, there will continue to be some detractors - there always is. But *most* sensible people can tell the difference between thoughtful discussion and a rant.
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#13
Deb Wrote:
superseiyan Wrote:They say something so definitely and with conviction, it's just accepted. Take this line, "It would appear, at least to me me that the source of all the strife is (tool) money.".

.


Um - I've heard that statement made by 4 different, highly-placed people within the sphere of Amway and the IBO world Big Grin Maybe it's actually 90 - 95%..... instead of "all" Wink

It would be interesting to know if things have settled down a bit, since Accreditation?? (The dilution of Power amongst the AMOs probably helps, too?)


I didn't mean in a general sense, I meant in the specific current context of WWDB. He just proclaims "it's because of tool problems". It appears to me that is the least of the current issues they're dealing with.
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#14
I got really angry when I found out about tool profit (it was actually after we were no longer active). It took me quite some time to figure out why the emotional reaction.

I totally appreciate that it takes time and effort to organize / support a system. Therefore one would expect it at least to break even, ie there needs to be profit to pay the expenses of the operation. One would also expect their to be a profit surplus - that is just good market practice.

Then why my reaction. I figured out it was because my truth was violated. It was explicitly stated by audios in the system that there was NOT a profit on the tapes or in the system. I was naive enough to believe it and purchased goods and services on the advice of my upline that I thought was impartial. When one of my (ex) upline Emeralds said purchase a pair and a spare (two + two) function tickets I thought he was doing this for our benefit. However he might not have been. He could have well been promoting cause he got a cut. It is the deception about the tools business that makes me angry (and likely others to).

Let me repeat: I don't mind their being a profit - just be upfront about it, so when you are promoting products and services I know that you benefit from my purchases.

I find it hard to believe that who organizations that had this tools "racket" going on would suddenly change because of accreditation. I have personal observed a huge gulf between system leaders tell Amway and what they tell IBO's. Until someone is honest about what was going on, and what is currently going on "critics" like myself (who I would regard as a moderate critic) will always have trust issues. Respect is given - trust is earned.
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#15
superseiyan Wrote:I didn't mean in a general sense, I meant in the specific current context of WWDB. He just proclaims "it's because of tool problems". It appears to me that is the least of the current issues they're dealing with.


Oops - I misunderstood Blush
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#16
stickshark Wrote:I got really angry when I found out about tool profit (it was actually after we were no longer active). It took me quite some time to figure out why the emotional reaction.

I totally appreciate that it takes time and effort to organize / support a system. Therefore one would expect it at least to break even, ie there needs to be profit to pay the expenses of the operation. One would also expect their to be a profit surplus - that is just good market practice.

Then why my reaction. I figured out it was because my truth was violated. It was explicitly stated by audios in the system that there was NOT a profit on the tapes or in the system. I was naive enough to believe it and purchased goods and services on the advice of my upline that I thought was impartial. When one of my (ex) upline Emeralds said purchase a pair and a spare (two + two) function tickets I thought he was doing this for our benefit. However he might not have been. He could have well been promoting cause he got a cut. It is the deception about the tools business that makes me angry (and likely others to).

Let me repeat: I don't mind their being a profit - just be upfront about it, so when you are promoting products and services I know that you benefit from my purchases.

I find it hard to believe that who organizations that had this tools "racket" going on would suddenly change because of accreditation. I have personal observed a huge gulf between system leaders tell Amway and what they tell IBO's. Until someone is honest about what was going on, and what is currently going on "critics" like myself (who I would regard as a moderate critic) will always have trust issues. Respect is given - trust is earned.


THAT was a beautiful post!! And seems to sum up *most* of the critics attitudes.

Having "talked" to many of those people - I think most could deal with the fact that they had been lied to. (Before the internet was used by everyone - the mantra from the largest AMOs was "We don't make any money of the tools and functions" and to discover the truth, you had to read it in a book Um, not everyone can afford to print a BOOK)

But what REALLY peeved these folks was that they had repeated the lies, to friends and family. Compromised their integrity. And they started posting their stories on the internet....and the truth became a tide that couldn't be stopped. Do I think the critics forced Accreditation?? You bet.

Any AMO Leader now who says "we don't make any profit from the tools and functions" is going to be found quickly to be a liar (and risks being hauled before the IBOAI). And if you're an IBO who's reading this and realizes your upline is still telling you stuff like that: you need to find a better upline.
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#17
Deb Wrote:And if you're an IBO who's reading this and realizes your upline is still telling you stuff like that: you need to find a better upline.


Well...it's not exactly that easy. As we all know, preserving the Line of Sponsorship is something that Amway, and Rich DeVos in particular, is very very VERY committed to.

One can't simply "find a better upline."

Options:

They may switch LOAs, but that's easier said than done. And there's no incentive for a non-LOS "upline" to help another IBO, unless that "upine" is making some income by selling BSMs to that IBO.

They may become "Independents," not associated with any LOA, but then they first have to have a major mindshift, no longer believing that an LOA aka System is necessary to building a successful Amway Business. And they will not really have a group/team/upline to help them. The Corp offers a ton of resources. However, the encouragement/motivation/guidance, usually supplied by the upline and the environment an LOA creates, will have to be found from another source.

Resign from Amway, sit out for six months, and then "find a better upline." This option is okay if the IBO a) doesn't mind waiting, and b) doesn't have any downline, since their downline would stay in the LOS (if their downline resigned as well, then the whole two-year rule has to be observed).
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#18
Bridgett you raise a very interesting point.

I had a very pivotal at my first year of university - trapped walking behind two academics going down the corridor. One said to the other "the problem is that by the time we get them [students] to a stage where they should be thinking for themselves we have so indoctrinated them that they can no longer challenge the theories." This has stayed with me as a pearl of wisdom that I try to live my life by.

The point is that Amway is not really interested in you as a IBO until you have reached a particular level of success. I imagine this level of success changes depending on market. The same can be said of LOA's they aren't interested in your ideas or point of view until you reach a certain success level.

There is good logic behind this - if everyone listened to the newest 3% IBO who thinks they are god's gift to amway/LOA the business would be in very serious trouble Confusedcratch: Confusedcratch: ! However once you reach a successful level (what ever that is) the culture of the organization has so permeated your own thinking and that of your down line that real change is very difficult. To add to this in some ways systems are self selecting. In any particular system/company (amway or outside amway) the culture of that company is going to bias those who are successful. It just makes sense that life/business is not a equal opportunity game, hopefully amway/LOA try to minimize this, but it this bias still exists. For example in our organization the successful people where white collar workers who had "disposable" income but no time..... as it was typical that someone would purchase $1k NZ ($1NZ = $0.8 US) of tools or product when signing up.

So the system to some degree self selects the leaders, so it self perpetuates. Combine this self selection with indoctrination before being successful you have organizations that struggle to change (plus the additional risk of loosing people/income/opportunities if you do change).

I once heard the illustration of a cargo ship. It is stacked high with containers that are not tied down well. You have to be careful how quickly you turn the ship around otherwise you lose your cargo. Clearly the cargo in this case is people, and the leader is the captain. I know of business that have moved systems ok, know business who ship wreaked cause they tried to change........
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#19
“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.”
Theodore Roosevelt
'The only way I can succeed in business is to proactively do something for 'MY BUSINESS' every day'
I look to the Future - for the Future is where I'm going to spend the rest of my Life
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#20
RW1 - I have just submitted my second column in a monthly "newspaper" (as a budding writer I am very pleased about this, it is the national Baptist newspaper that goes out to all Baptists through out the country. And also I think NZ Baptists are different from USA Baptists..... not exactly sure what the differences are, but the jokes about southern Baptists don't correlate to NZ Baptists (or maybe they don't correlate at all to USA Baptists - I wouldn't know))

Anyway back to the point about critics. In the column I wrote stated by discussing how most negative critics have a grain of truth at the core of their garbage. Yes most of the time it is not worth sifting through the muck to find the nugget of truth. However sometimes it is a worthwhile endeavor. Because if we can extract the truth from the mess we can then improve and become better in that specific area.

Now clearly the article then didn't go into an Amway discussion, it went into a "christian" discussion Big Grin . However the same principle applies to Amway discussions. Yes the Amway critics sit in their mud puddle and through s**t at all associated with amway. However the critics do have some validity. For example tool profit critics - have a valid point that tool profits are unethical because some LOA denied any profit. The amway-cult critics - have a valid point - some LOA are very cult like. The loose your friends critics - have a valid point - some LOA teach that if your friends don't see it change your friends, other LOA discourage any friendships except for upline/downline/business. Those critics who say Amway is dishonest - have a valid point - some LOA's teach ways of tricking people to see the plan. etc. etc. etc. we could do this for every critic "topic".

One can argue against each of the above mentioned critics. However as they have a valid point (and also being human), they are unlikely to change their minds...... therefore there are two options. One state (like IBOFB does sometimes) that there is validity in the criticism, however only in this small area. Now the critic has two choices. Accept they had some truth and get on with their loves and get out of the mud puddle. Or secondly (and most go this way) become completely irrational about the topic, hold on tightly to their hurt, pain and injustice and dig deeper into the mire. Thus they become bitter, twisted and sick individuals.

To wipe off critics completely, just for being critics, is actually being myopic - which is ironically exactly what the critics are.
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