Amway Talk

Ros wrote:

MichMan wrote:

Ros wrote: if our main focus is on what "we" think is wrong with “others” and not on what "we" should be doing, then aren't we allowing others to determine our destiny and not taking personal responsibility for our own lives?

Just a thought.

- Ros

I believe that rank and file ibos will be MORE empowered to take personal responsibility if they know the truth about the bsm money being made by their upline diamond who is promoting the "new and improved" bsms.

We need to create an environment where they are EMPOWERED to take responsibility, if indeed we expect that from them.

MichMan,

What is a rank and file ibos? (lower case denotes weak and powerless)

I believe all IBOs (upper case denotes dignity and respect) have an equal opportunity to achieve whatever level of success “we” determine for ourselves.

To equate (degrade) an ibo as "rank and file" is to imply they are not in control of their own destiny. This is not true! Although if you believe it to be true, then it is for you.

At what point do you beleive a person responsible for their own actions and success?

IBOs are EMPOWERED, not by the environment, a government or by knowing some "truth" as you call it, but by their Creator. The truth is, we all have within us the power to choose to be responsible for own lives. We also choose to either use that power or give it away to others when we don’t.

A fundamental difference between Socialism and Democracy is who we give the power to control our lives. The state or ourselves?

Of course it’s far easier to allow others to tell us what to do so we don’t have to, but not nearly as fun or rewarding.

When I was told by my upline there was profits on BSM that was earned by “anyone” who achieved specific levels (Platinum and above) I did not feel any more “ENPOWERED” to take more or less responsibility for my business, that was a given. It always was and always will be my responsibility. For which I am grateful.

- Ros

I would define "rand and file" ibos as the vast majority of ibos in the US. The ibos who have not yet enjoyed great success, the ibos who do not have the money to have an attorney represent them in conflicts with LOAs or the corporation, ibos who do not have the business accumen to get legal advice before signing the IBO contract that has been declared "unconscionably" illegal by several US courts and the ones who do not have representation with the IBOAI or the corporation.

Regarding democracy, one of our Founding Fathers also said that our nation was founded on the belief that each and every one of us governed ourselves and our actions by the 10 Commandments, that we would not need a large and intrusive government.

In the same sense, if Diamonds did the same thing, Amway would not have such a reputation problem.

MichMan wrote:In the same respect, why should anyone take the Diamond's word that you need to buy more bsms?

A responsible person should say to the used car salesman and the diamond, "Thanks for your advice. I will get a second opinion and make the decision for myself."

Absolutely. And who might you get a second opinion off? The only one who could give any sort of valid advice is someone who as achieved what you are hoping the BSM will help you achieve.

Wearyeyed wrote:

According to you, we should take the word of the handful of online tools critics over any group made up of active distributors.

No. If they simply followed their own insticts and built the business in the manner that suits them the best. Go read some of Bridgett's comments.

She decided one day to make her own decisions on bsms and to tell her upline 'NO' if she did not feel the need for more bsms.

Today she claims she is more profitable and in more control of her business. To me THAT is taking personal responsibility.

Which is exactly what I was taught from day one. The people who make money are the ones who take personal responsibility for their businesses, and their decisions.

The people who end up on the internet whining are the ones who apparently take advice as if it was orders and then complain they spent too much money.

These are the folk who say things like "you have to do this" and "you must buy this" and "you're expected to do this", abrogating their decision making responsibility and pretending it was somebody elses job.

That is the difference between "employee" mentality and "business owner" mentality.

Many of the folk who never succeed in Amway are the folk who've never made that switch, and the nature of their complaints on the internet emphasise it.

MichMan wrote:No. If they simply followed their own insticts and built the business in the manner that suits them the best. Go read some of Bridgett's comments.

She decided one day to make her own decisions on bsms and to tell her upline 'NO' if she did not feel the need for more bsms.

Today she claims she is more profitable and in more control of her business. To me THAT is taking personal responsibility.

I agree!

You are asserting that others cannot make the same free choice absent a knowledge of the profits system leaders make on tools.

I assert personal responsibility INCLUDES the acknowledgment to oneself that the tools do or do not have personal value, and decide if they are worth the money based on THAT metric; not based on the profitability of the tools for system leaders.

Just don't kid yourself that if those same tools didn't provide a value to me, I wouldn't stop using them, and I promise I wouldn't blame a darn thing on my lack of knowledge for how much profit those tools generate.

IBOFB, some LOAs use heavy handed tactics and subtly call you a loser if you don't buy A LOT of tools. Statements like 'winners listen to 3 Cds a day'. Or an upline will say, "here! And hand a tape to you and promote it".

A little awkward to not buy a lot of tools in such an environment.

It's somewhat problematic, because without questions education and tools ARE needed.

It's just that I think beyond standing order, I wish some LOAs would relax on the poor guy or allow them more choice. As they grow, they'll naturally seek mroe knowledge (if they want a big business). Nothing wrong with buying 3-4 CDs a week, but it should be because the IBO wants to listen to them, not because he wants to impress his upline.

LTD has direct fullfilment, perhaps that might be helping the situation a little, as it gives the IBO more choice. Anyone in LTD, how is that working?

Oh - a lot of LOAs have a core step called "counselling". Many people don't do that. Let your upline platinum know how much you can afford to spend a month.

IMO, the Corporation needs to engage very seriously at the Q12 level. Both for first circle and best business practices. Diamonds might mean well, but they're too far removed from JoIBO, and often are thinking in terms of waht they did to go from Emerald to Diamond, and too often forget about the five years it took them to go silver.
A Q12 is close enough to both. Very important IMO...IBOFB you should blog about that.

MichMan wrote:I would define "rand and file" ibos as the vast majority of ibos in the US. The ibos who have not yet enjoyed great success, the ibos who do not have the money to have an attorney represent them in conflicts with LOAs or the corporation, ibos who do not have the business accumen to get legal advice before signing the IBO contract that has been declared "unconscionably" illegal by several US courts and the ones who do not have representation with the IBOAI or the corporation.

Regarding democracy, one of our Founding Fathers also said that our nation was founded on the belief that each and every one of us governed ourselves and our actions by the 10 Commandments, that we would not need a large and intrusive government.

In the same sense, if Diamonds did the same thing, Amway would not have such a reputation problem.

MichMan,

I agree with your comments regarding democracy, but as far as the rest - you are still insinuating that ibos (being weak and powerless) do not have the same opportunity as those IBOs who went on and achieved Diamond.

You seem to imply that Diamonds were born into their success and ibos who haven't yet achieved that level are powerless to do anything for themselves - they are victims.

I know you know that all IBOs start their businesses in the same way, with the same opportunity. ALL IBOs. That includes the newest 3% all the way up to the highest achievers at Founders Crown Ambassador. How is it that you’ve come to the belief that some ibos can’t do the same? Do you believe you can if you decide to?

As far as Amway's reputation is concerned, I agree all IBOs (Diamond or not) share in the responsibility of making it better or worse. But you know that.

Are there people who don't have a favorable view of Amway? Sure.

But there are boat loads of people who DO have a great opinion of Amway. Will they all get involved as an IBO or become a customer, of course not. But then again not everyone likes oysters. Doesn’t make them bad.

As for my own personal experience, my most recent 2 IBOs and 1 customer ALL had a very favorable opinion of Amway and Amway products.

MichMan, I wish for you a renewed belief in the American Dream, that you and anyone who wants to succeed, and was willing to work for it can achieve whatever they want to, regardless of their obstacles the might need to overcome.

- Ros

superseiyan wrote:IBOFB, some LOAs use heavy handed tactics and subtly call you a loser if you don't buy A LOT of tools. Statements like 'winners listen to 3 Cds a day'. Or an upline will say, "here! And hand a tape to you and promote it".

A little awkward to not buy a lot of tools in such an environment.

It's somewhat problematic, because without questions education and tools ARE needed.

It's just that I think beyond standing order, I wish some LOAs would relax on the poor guy or allow them more choice. As they grow, they'll naturally seek mroe knowledge (if they want a big business). Nothing wrong with buying 3-4 CDs a week, but it should be because the IBO wants to listen to them, not because he wants to impress his upline.

LTD has direct fullfilment, perhaps that might be helping the situation a little, as it gives the IBO more choice. Anyone in LTD, how is that working?

Oh - a lot of LOAs have a core step called "counselling". Many people don't do that. Let your upline platinum know how much you can afford to spend a month.

IMO, the Corporation needs to engage very seriously at the Q12 level. Both for first circle and best business practices. Diamonds might mean well, but they're too far removed from JoIBO, and often are thinking in terms of waht they did to go from Emerald to Diamond, and too often forget about the five years it took them to go silver.
A Q12 is close enough to both. Very important IMO...IBOFB you should blog about that.

I agree that IBOs need to be forthcoming with their financial situations.

The trick, unfortunately, is in the lesson.

An IBO who is encouraged to "listen to three CDs a day", and does so my making the CHOICE to build a business, as opposed to doing little to build their business and incur debt (which is the the larger majority) develops an overcomer's attitude which will serve them well regardless of their venture.

Most IBOs CAN afford system tools at the level recommended or beyond, they typically choose to keep watching 172 channels of HDTV, smoking two packs-a-day, eating out three times a week, and buying "stuff" because they have no concept of delayed gratification.

If most IBOs CHOSE to read between the lines and learn the background concepts, the whole "tools issue" wouldn't be one.

Now, some people believe it is the UPLINE'S responsibility to make these people "do the right thing."

Not only are we not supposed to be making downline "do" anything, most of the "right things" are in the system tools, if not just the in the act of figuring out how to afford them.

I learned long ago that the system is very rewarding when you start to apply it in all areas of your life,not just in building an Amway business.

Unfortunately, many people think the lessons are only for their business.

ibofightback wrote:
That is the difference between "employee" mentality and "business owner" mentality.

I am a business owner. I own a franchise. And I have certain expectations from my franchisor. Any smart business owner would be asking serious questions about bsms, not simply following some pied piper over the cliff.

It appears we all agree that each IBO must decide for themselves what is best for their own busienss.

And that each IBO - be they a 3% or Platinum or Diamond, have a moral obligation to build their businesses responsibly and with integrity.

The disagreements some have it seems, is, who is responsible or to blame for "my" success or failure?

For those truly seeking it, the answer can only be "me".

- Ros