Amway Talk

Wearyeyed, I think what people want is honesty and disclosure regarding tool profits.

We have information from three different diamond groups over a ten year period that all tell the same story, that the vast majority of a diamond's money is from selling bsms, not building the business they are selling.

Nearly ten years ago, Kenny Stewart and Brig Hart testified that over 80 percent of a Diamond's income in the Gooch system was from selling bsms.

Orin Woodward claimed that TEAM diamonds made 4-5 times more from bsms than they did from Quixtar.

Chuck Lia has a document in his posession where a Network 21 diamond states that their tool income is 2-3 times more than the Amway income.

Putting all of these together, a Diamonds Amway/Quixtar income is only 17% on the low end and 33% on the high end.

So yes, if the "students" knew the profit structure if the system, there would be a significant change in their behavior. Maybe some of the "students" would begin to opt out of the mandates of the system. Others would begin to focus on their own business, realizing that they should be more concerned with their own profitability.

MichMan wrote:Wearyeyed, I think what people want is honesty and disclosure regarding tool profits.

I don't disagree that their *could* be more transparency regarding tools profits; I just fail to see what the point would be.

For ME, knowing this information makes absolutely zero difference in how I view or use the information, whether 100% of my costs are profit, or o%.

I expect that they make money providing the service, and I expect that different people will realize different benefits.

I also realize they are optional, and I realize that when I do not use them, my business stagnates.

I agree wholeheartedly with IBOFB that if some outside company came in and produced the same / similar tools and profited on them it would be completely "okay".

The fact that that outside business is lead and run by someone ALSO building or having built an Amway business is a bonus.

But what those profits ARE really has no impact on what I choose to learn, do, or experience.

I guess I will just agree to have a differing opinion, and choice of derived value.

MichMan wrote:So yes, if the "students" knew the profit structure if the system, there would be a significant change in their behavior. Maybe some of the "students" would begin to opt out of the mandates of the system. Others would begin to focus on their own business, realizing that they should be more concerned with their own profitability.

Why?

We all should have some inkling that profits are made on the support material.

Do audio CDs somehow take on new meaning when they advocate "Show the plan" because suddenly you become aware of the SPECIFIC profit made on the audio?

Is a book that champions the attitudes of success less valuable in content because suddenly you become aware of the SPECIFIC profit made on the book?

The extra information is not a catalyst for failure; but a person's choice to sit around worrying about it might be.

The reason that transparency is needed is simple- It allows IBOs to be able to make a judgement when the Diamonds on stage spend all of their time time talkng about buying more bsms, attending the next function, replacing all of your "old" tools with "new and improved" tools, stocking up on CDs, etc.

They can ask themselves, "How much time does this Diamond spend talking about finding and developing a Nutrilite customer where his Diamond over-ride is a fraction of one percent, versus buying more tools, where his profit is many, many times greater?

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Going back to the university example... Imagine if college professors had the same profit potential on books as Amway Diamonds do.

So your daughter attends her first day of class and the professor promotes several hundred dollars of books. She goes to the bookstore, swallos hard spends nearly $1000 of her savings for the books he "recommends." Later, you find that the same professor makes $300,000 per year promoting those text books, versus his university salary of $100,000.

How would you feel about that professor or that university? Would it make you think twice before recommending your daughter buy all of them? Does anybody here think that that professor has a conflict of interest? Do the students REALLY need those books? Or does he push those books because he needs the income?

Actually, it's quite common for University professors to promote books they've written themselves, and quite obviously profit from.

MichMan wrote:How would you feel about that professor or that university? Would it make you think twice before recommending your daughter buy all of them? Does anybody here think that that professor has a conflict of interest? Do the students REALLY need those books? Or does he push those books because he needs the income?

Good questions, MichMan.

I ask you this:

If someone believes they are getting a good value for their money, they believe that if they apply what they learn they will earn more than what they spent learning it, and they have seen others use the SAME material to reach their own level of success, do you think their mind will change because they know the DETAILS of the profit structure?

In other words, if it turns out 100% of the money they spend is pure profit, does the content and the way they have been interpreting it suddenly change?

Remember, they already feel they get good value for the money.

Maybe we should have higher standards to start the business so we can have less complaints of the costs, and likely the profits made, as does any Ivy League University, despite the fact the material provided is not fundamentally different from that of a state-run university.

Ah, but this is a business run at the INDIVIDUAL'S pace and level of commitment; not directed by GPAs or standards of performance.

The only people that are distracted by the lack of profit detail are those that feel they are NOT getting their value for the price.

And they DO NOT have to participate from the minute they feel that value is absent, so there is really no problem unless the individual creates one.

In my opinion, the need for profit detail is another example of a solution critics drum-up for a problem that only exists among those that, for whatever reason, have a problem developing a profitable business with tools expenses.

Show me someone who thinks their business isn't growing BECAUSE the system leaders are profiting on the material, but not telling that someone how much they profit, and I will show you someone who isn't using the content the material provides consistently and persistently; not to mention someone who can't accept personal responsibility, but is good at creating lame excuses.

NO ONE is hurt or even affected by the DETAILS of the profits made on tools.

As a result, knowing them does not suddenly make a failing IBO a success, and it certainly doesn't make someone who finds good value in the tools suddenly find the content worthless.

Transparency, honesty, rewards for ones efforts, receiving value (and results) from a book or recording or seminar.

All valid and important points Wearyeyed, ibofightback and MichMan.

Regardless of what is happening around us; it's what "we" choose to focus on and believe in that determines "our" attitudes.

And it's "our" attitude which determines "our" actions, and "our" actions determine the results "we" get.

In addition, when we see something we believe is wrong or needs changing; AND it's appropriate, we should work towards improving it, and likewise we also need to be wise enough to know when it's best to leave it alone.

We are not subject to the wills or actions of others, regardless of whether we agree or disagree with them, nor if their actions are counter to ours. It mattes not, for so long as we are free to think and act for ourselves, we determine our own course for our lives.

It’s far too easy for me to get distracted by what “I see” as a flaw in others, what “I” need to focus on “first” are the flaws and situations in my own life. When I do, it often amazes me how other peoples flaws seem to diminish or disappear entirely.

- Ros

stickshark wrote:
Lastly a solution that to me seems blindingly obvious is lets be honest and upfront about tools profit. What drives my desire for change is that very ripped off feeling, that my upline promoted consumption of tools, communicated that they made no profit, so we could trust them. Well after 7 years of investing, for no return I find out that they are making a significant margin on the tools. Therefore this throughs there integrity into question and I feel very anger that I was deceived. The violation of trust is significant. However if we rewound time and they said from the beginning that there is profit in tools, as for reasons explained above, I would not have a problem know as I wouldn't have been ripped off. I would have purchased tools knowing that this is the deal. Unfortunately systems don't seem to want to come clean and be upfront about the profit level.

Here I have to agree with you Stickshark (pick yourself up of the floor if needed). One of the things I am most proud about with the Team is that the leaders, such as Orrin and Chris, agree with this as well. Orrin and Chris actively fought for being up front with tool profits, and worked against the back room "old boys" network of tool profit dealings. I believe this is a big part of why many other system leaders don't have very fond feeling for them. When Orrin and Chris wrote their book "Leading the Consumer Rebellion", a first night book for prospects, they actually put an entire chapter in the book explaining tools and profit from tools. Amway wanted nothing to do with this, they actually made them take the chapter out of the book before they would authorize it. Crazy! Orrin has openly said numerous times that as the Team continues to grow we will be able to continue to cut the costs of the sytem. He has backed this up as well. Since I started they have lowered the price of Major functions tickets (and actually added more time) and have brought the cost of our cds now lower than the price of the tapes when I started. Another thing I appreciate is the books that they include in system rarely, if ever, cost more than $20. The average book price, I believe, is around $12. They actively work to keep those prices down by negotiating with the supplier and demanding soft covers instead of hard. I remember meeting an author at a seminar for my old job, I knew he would be there and I had a book from our system, so I brought it along to be signed. As soon as he saw the book he knew where I got it because we were the only place his book was being sold not in hard cover.

Anyways, I don't mean to promote or solicit for Team with this post, but this issue is important and as long as people are getting hurt, or feeling as if they were hurt, as you were, the systems will be blamed and any good they accomplish will be completely over shadowed.

Ros wrote:As has been discussed and debated many times, the value of BSM or other ‘life-enhancing” materials is not in the cost one pays for it, nor what was earned by the persons who produced it.

The true value is that which we each choose to place on it, and what we choose to do with it. The value which you receive may be significantly more then what I received from the same, and likewise I may receive greater value then you with other materials. It's of our own choosing.

Another observation I've made, the value we place depends greatly on our personal growth and timing as well as our willingness to receive it.

Perhaps we (I) need to mature in certain areas before receiving the true blessings and values that are waiting for us (me). (Personal experience.)

Very well put Ros!!

ibofightback wrote:Actually, it's quite common for University professors to promote books they've written themselves, and quite obviously profit from.

Untrue.

That practive is illegal in many states. Most universities either prohibit the practice or STRICTLY regulate it.

For instance, here is one university's policy:

"Textbook Royalties
Faculty members who assign books or other materials which they have written, edited, or published and from which they receive royalties or other remuneration may not profit financially from the purchase of these materials by their students (Operations Manual, III-17.17(3)). The faculty member must either refund the money to the students who purchased these materials or make other arrangements to avoid profiting from the students' use of the materials. Faculty may, for example, transfer the remuneration to the University, one of its units, or The University of Iowa Foundation (e.g., for a student scholarship fund)."

http://www.clas.uiowa.edu/faculty/teaching/new_textbooks_etc.shtml

There is a huge conflict of interest and potential for abuse in these situations. Same story in the Amway business.

ss3251 wrote: One of the things I am most proud about with the Team is that the leaders, such as Orrin and Chris, agree with this as well. Orrin and Chris actively fought for being up front with tool profits, and worked against the back room "old boys" network of tool profit dealings. I believe this is a big part of why many other system leaders don't have very fond feeling for them. When Orrin and Chris wrote their book "Leading the Consumer Rebellion", a first night book for prospects, they actually put an entire chapter in the book explaining tools and profit from tools. Amway wanted nothing to do with this, they actually made them take the chapter out of the book before they would authorize it. Crazy!

I don't know the real reasons why the TEAM leaders were fired and do not defend them.

But I always respected them for trying to make the tool money transparent. In that respect, it is a shame they were fired. Same with the Team In Focus leaders several years ago.

Both groups tried to make the money transparent and to let more people "in" on the profits.

And Amway fired both groups.

Too bad.