Amway Talk

stickshark wrote:I can't believe that am reading this. What this communicates to me is that the tools business is potentially illegal So people can't formalize it through the corp. So it operates informally, and is dubious legality.

No, not at all. Every IBO below platinum is a customer paying full retail price who cannot earn an income by promoting the product to others.

The retail customer rate in the BSM business is more then >99%

stickshark,

I agree community is extremely important, as is self reliance.

Abuse in any form is wrong, and should be stopped as soon as it is discovered, even if we ourselves are doing the abuse.

That is why we must always be aware and take total responsibility for all aspects of our lives.

It's not fair, sometimes we get the wind knocked out of us when we're helping another, other times we get the gold ring when we least deserve it.

But regardless of what happens to us, good or bad, we always have the capacity to decide the meaning of it and how we will respond.

And it is not I who is responsible for myself, my successes and failures, then who is?

- Ros
___________

"Fundamentally, therefore, any man can, even under such circumstances, decide what shall become of him - mentally and spiritually. He may retain his human dignity even in a concentration camp."

"Man's Search for Meaning", by Viktor Frankl

Be a student, not a follower.

--Jim Rohn

ajgannon wrote:Be a student, not a follower.

--Jim Rohn

brilliant...

stickshark wrote:

ibofightback wrote:

stickshark wrote:Is it unethical that the senior pins share in the profits of the system, no. It is unethical that they do not declare their conflict of interest upfront.

This has been declared in IBO registration forms and elsewhere for years.

Really? Your reputation precedes you, so the odds are strongly that you are right.

However I have never seen it, it might have been on the full page of fine print. It didn't know about this profit for about 10 years in the business. And at this stage I had read a lot of the forms fine prints.

Do you have a form handy that you could quote from?

a lot of the problem with the tools issue really stemed from the fact that it was not declared, i was told about it up front from the first day that there is also a profit share system in the books and tapes and been encourage to do so with my group.

i was always told that they are two seperate businesses, and i guess when people are told one thing and been pushed into something else is unethical and that is why there are stories out there where they are 'forced' to purchase large amount of tools. Everything I bought has been voluntary because I wanted to learn more.

ibofightback wrote:

stickshark wrote:I can't believe that am reading this. What this communicates to me is that the tools business is potentially illegal So people can't formalize it through the corp. So it operates informally, and is dubious legality.

No, not at all. Every IBO below platinum is a customer paying full retail price who cannot earn an income by promoting the product to others.

The retail customer rate in the BSM business is more then >99%

Amway years ago, produced and sold their own tools... tapes, books, boards and easels. All of the tools had full BV on them. This practice went on in the 80s and into the 90s. I cannot believe that it was illegal as ibofb claims or Amway would have gotten caught.

potentially illegal MichMan. It's not the same thing as is illegal. It becomes illegal if folk are promoting the purchase of the tools to downline so they make money from the purchases of those tools, and they are encouraging people to recruit people to purchase the tools so they make money and they are not sold at reasonable market rates. I would presume Amway was selling at decent market rates. The problem is that even if legal, any legal scrutiny can cause massive reputation issues and damage, so it's best avoided. BSM companies avoid the issue by having huge numbers of full price customers. TIF wanted to extend the compensation plan such that this didn't occur. TIF lawyers thought it was still legal, and I happen to agree with them. Amway lawyers thought it was potentially illegal, and I happen to agree with them too. The problem with the "potentially" is that Amway certainly doesn't want a BSM organization dragged in to court as a potential illegal pyramid.

Having had the opportunity to participate in and learn from seven different education and training systems, each for a minimum of one year (some for more then ten years), I can speak with some authority when I say that the benefits I received far exceed my financial investment.

The systems all paralleled each other in providing many well founded principles in business, sales, marketing, leadership, goal setting, finances, personal development, relationships, spiritual, inspirational and motivation.

While some of the systems focused more in some areas then others, such as business and sales, all provided excellent foundational principles in all areas as well.

I must say, the training materials offered through Amway in the 80s & 90s were excellent. As were the materials from the other systems of the same period.

With the advent of newer technology, how the support and training materials are distributed and used may have changed, but the core principles have not. The continuing educational systems offered today are without a doubt some of the best in the world, I would add, they are actually the best at providing a more complete support system with personal one on one hands-on coaching and mentoring.

My disclaimer is this: I was encouraged to participate, but never forced or coerced. I've had times where I wasn't involved in any support system at all, yet I still had complete upline support and training.

As a result of participating in these educational and training systems, I've earned more, have better relationships and a lot more fun.

- Ros

ibofightback wrote:potentially illegal MichMan. It's not the same thing as is illegal. It becomes illegal if folk are promoting the purchase of the tools to downline so they make money from the purchases of those tools, and they are encouraging people to recruit people to purchase the tools so they make money and they are not sold at reasonable market rates.

Hence the critics online are fishing for ex IBO's who were promoted to purchase the tools, and argue that the tools is the main business, this is a pyramid, and should be shut down. To me there is not much difference is essence is having them have BV on them, and having a senior pin "selling" them to downline. Legally there might be a difference, but ethically this is still skating on thin ice, with BV being more ethical, but ironically less legal. Such is the irony of life.

stickshark wrote:with BV being more ethical, but ironically less legal. Such is the irony of life.

I remember having a college class called Business Ethics. I laughed at that title thinking that it was a play on words. Interestingly enough the class was taught by a Lutheran pastor. You'd think this wouldn't go so well or him being biased, but he ended up teaching by asking questions. If anyone happens to read things in the Bible that Jesus taught, sometimes he taught some very important lessons by asking people a question. Rich Devos did that a lot too. Instead of giving the answer, he would force people to use their noggin and come up with a solution.

I wouldn't be surprised if some day, some ex-IBOs in the US, appeal to the 9th circuit court of appeals and the appeals court, being as crazy as they are (Supreme Court hears and strikes down more appeals from the 9th circuit than any other ), make BSM companies illegal and even level, like, $5 million in awards from Alticor. And then it would be funny to watch it get appealed to the US Supreme Court, and then the SC gets so tired of the 9th court they force congress to reseat the 9th circuit.

Sorry, I don't like the 9th Circuit. But neither does the US SC, because the 9th wastes their time so often.

"So it was through the media of tapes that I basically learned this business. Because in those days I couldn't afford to jump in a plane and I didn't have the time or the money to come out here every month to get the information, to be able to associate like this. We didn't have rallies and seminars. K? So the tapes, were very very valuable, it got us to a certain point in the business where we could afford to come out and associate. And you read books! That's what winners do. ... And that's how we learn."

"If you limit the growth of your business to what your own knowledge, and cut off your head, you're like a chicken with it's head cut off. You're excited . . . but if you tell it to go . . . it may never get there." And that's what I see people doing by not submitting to someone else to get them going somewhere.
-- Pump in the Dessert, Ron Puryear

And thankfully, that two disc CD set cost me $5 billion dollars! No, it was $5.