Amway Talk

Ros,

I do NOT believe that Diamonds were born that way or that they were somehow transformed into their position. I simply believe that everyday ibos do not have anyone looking out for their best interests... not the corporation, not the IBOAI. And in many LOAs they are discouraged from challenging their upline in any way, shape or form.

And I do believe in the American dream. My problem is with the way some LOAs in Amway operate. That is no reflection on my views of free enterprise or the American dream.

MichMan wrote:

ibofightback wrote:
That is the difference between "employee" mentality and "business owner" mentality.

I am a business owner. I own a franchise. And I have certain expectations from my franchisor. Any smart business owner would be asking serious questions about bsms, not simply following some pied piper over the cliff.

I agree with you MichMan.

In your experience, why do think some IBOs (or some franchise owners for that matter) don't or can't decide for themselves?

And more importantly, what would you recommend to help them take more personal responsibility for themselves?

- Ros

Ros wrote:

MichMan wrote:

ibofightback wrote:
That is the difference between "employee" mentality and "business owner" mentality.

I am a business owner. I own a franchise. And I have certain expectations from my franchisor. Any smart business owner would be asking serious questions about bsms, not simply following some pied piper over the cliff.

I agree with you MichMan.

In your experience, why do think some IBOs (or some franchise owners for that matter) don't or can't decide for themselves?

And more importantly, what would you recommend to help them take more personal responsibility for themselves?

- Ros

#1 Because many ibos mistakenly believe that their upline always has their best interests in mind.

#2 They need to be encouraged and empowered to say NO to their upline when it is in their best interests to do so.

MichMan wrote:#1 Because many ibos mistakenly believe that their upline always has their best interests in mind.

In general I think they do. Even if they are making all their money on tools, it's still in both parties interests for the downline to be hugely successful.

The thing is, even with someones best interests in mind, any advice given can be the wrong advice. In N21 we have a rule - "don't take counsel from stage". Which means anything you hear on stage or on CD you want to apply, then you should consider discussing it with your counselling upline first, to see if it applies for your situation. A speaker on stage might say "this CD pack changed my life! Buy it!", but your counselling upline might know you're in a desparate final situation and can't afford it, so might temper that advice somewhat.

MichMan wrote:#2 They need to be encouraged and empowered to say NO to their upline when it is in their best interests to do so.

I agree, however the problem with that as blanket advice is that a downline may not know what is in their best interest. What they have to be willing to do is to (a) be honest about their situation so that upline can give advice based on a true picture and (b) be willing to question their upline about why they're giving that advice, and comprehending why the upline is suggesting in. Then they make their own decision.

MichMan wrote:Ros,

I do NOT believe that Diamonds were born that way or that they were somehow transformed into their position. I simply believe that everyday ibos do not have anyone looking out for their best interests... not the corporation, not the IBOAI. And in many LOAs they are discouraged from challenging their upline in any way, shape or form.

And I do believe in the American dream. My problem is with the way some LOAs in Amway operate. That is no reflection on my views of free enterprise or the American dream.

MichMan,

I agree there are some who have done it wrong.

But let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater! (Old European saying).

Look, you know as well as I do, as the owner of a franchised business that regardless of how much support you have, no mater how great it may be, you could still fail. Many do.

Those that make it are those that decide they will, no matter what.

Is it unfair that some IBOs have great uplines, LOS, got in at the right time, etc… and then went on to succeed? It may seem that way to some.

There was a time when I was all alone with no local upline. I would have loved to have had someone to help me, even if they were awful!

We can either console one another for our “bad luck” or decide to rise above our circumstances, learn what we need to - to succeed and do it anyways.

It's often in the struggle that I learn and grow the most that leads to the successes I have.

- Ros

MichMan wrote:

Ros wrote:In your experience, why do think some IBOs (or some franchise owners for that matter) don't or can't decide for themselves?

And more importantly, what would you recommend to help them take more personal responsibility for themselves?

- Ros

#1 Because many ibos mistakenly believe that their upline always has their best interests in mind.

#2 They need to be encouraged and empowered to say NO to their upline when it is in their best interests to do so.

I do believe most uplines DO in fact want their downline to succeed and have their best interest at heart.

Yes. Encourage all IBOs to think for themselves, but that doesn’t mean being a renegade or “hotdog”.

Obviously if an upline tells their downline to do something wrong, they shouldn't do it.

Although not an exact comparison, but just like in the military. The subordinate is to follow the orders of their commanding officers, except when it violates a moral or other law.

- Ros

Wearyeyed wrote:
Would spending the money on tools and applying the same effort the majority now apply somehow be different if the profit the support organizations made was publicized?

Why?

Take this as an example. Let me say I was traveling to Michagen (sp?) on business. So I email MichMan and say to him, coming to Michagen can you tell me a good quality hotel that has meets these requirements... etc. So he recommends Joe's Hotel. I trust his recommendation because he is independent. However if he is a share holder in Joe's Hotel then after I stay, I find this out, I would be suspicious, upset and annoyed that I might not have got the best hotel, I got the one that he profited by my staying. This removes the trust from the relationship. However if he had said hay I am a shareholder in Joe's Hotel and I think it is the best, and I go and stay, then it is my choose. MichMan has been honest and upfront.

To put it another way what is actually going on is a conflict of interest. In business it is always ethical, and some time compulsory to declare a conflict of interest. It is akin to having a business adviser (upline) who profit shares in a independent training company (system). Going to this business adviser to ask for help in your business. What the adviser says is going get some training in this company over here. Now if that business adviser does not disclose that he/she makes money from you going to that seemingly independent training system. That is unethical, because they have not declared there conflict of interest. You as a customer need to know if there is any potential bias in their recommendations due to their conflicts of interest.

Is it unethical that the senior pins share in the profits of the system, no. It is unethical that they do not declare their conflict of interest upfront.

It is about the ethics of the business practice, I am not calling into question the learning that occurs in the system, but the unethical nature of the conflict of interest.

MichMan wrote:

If someone is encouraged to look under the hood of a used car, have it looked at by their own mechanic before they purchase it, they will take more responsibility for the purchase than if they take the salesman's word for the condition of the car.

In the same way, ibos should be made aware of the vast profits of bsms versus the actual business. Then they can evaluate if the REALLY need the new tools or if the LOAs are promoting them for self serving reasons.

MichMan you seem to be hitting the nail on the head with your posts. I am still paying catch up, as I sleep much debate occurs on the other side of the world.

The classic is this promotion: Upline emerald promotes, pair plus spare for next function. This is where buy your own, plus another to promote to a new person you will bring along. Emerald works were tool flow is. Therefore if you are planning to build it, take another pair on faith.

If the Emerald makes nothing on the sale, then it is independent advise. However know know that upline Emerald makes profit, of what level we still unsure, but lets say an extra $50 from my purchase of my spare. Now this calls into question where the advise was given for my best interests, or to make an extra $50. NOBODY can make this call because it is an issue of the heart. However when everyone is aware of who makes money of what, people then at least have the chance to properly evaluate. Otherwise this opens to the door to abuse.

MichMan wrote:
You claim that people buy bsms simply to increase pleasure. But many people also buy bsms to avoid pain or conflict with their upline. Having this knowledge will help them make bsm decisions that are right for them.

MichMan where you somehow in the same group I was in ? It is comforting to know that people on the other side of the world have same issues and I have had.

I have seen so many tools purchases and money lost because people want to avoid pain or conflict with upline. Or prove that they are "worthy" of being worked with. Or on the hope that he upline will spend more time with them. The upline is in a position of power, both financially and emotionally. This power can have devastating effects if not used properly.

stickshark wrote:Is it unethical that the senior pins share in the profits of the system, no. It is unethical that they do not declare their conflict of interest upfront.

This has been declared in IBO registration forms and elsewhere for years.